Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Yep. It’s a kind of ‘gotcha!’

You should count yourself bloody lucky OP.
You managed to get a place in a good State school for your DD and could have afforded to go Private if you didn't .
Not everyone with DC In Private or indeed State schools will have that same opportunity so even without Private school you are privileged.
My DS will be staying at Private as the State option is not great and we are lucky that we have choices even with an increase in fees.

Skiing holidays does not sound lower middle class to me. More like aspirational, entitled and very middle class.

Nobody is just telling this lot to just pay a bit more tax. They are telling them they are wanted and needed in state schools and that opting out of the state system is bad. That’s the message across the board - that it is morally better to go to state school. That they are buying privilege and that we have a problem with private school in this country as it hinders social mobility and is inequitable. So she is just acting on that?
And finding it makes financial sense for her to do so. It’s exactly what the middle classes would do. If it’s now no longer socially acceptable to go to private school, then the middle classes won’t. If they all pretty much end up in the same state schools then how is that any different to private school anyway? Add in some tutoring and after school cricket clubs and the result is the same.
People like the OP will just buy a chalet or a house in the champagne region of France and drive over in her electric vehicle instead of private schooling. That’s what many of the European middle classes do,

"If they all pretty much end up in the same state schools then how is that any different to private school anyway? Add in some tutoring and after school cricket clubs and the result is the same."

Exactly the same argument applies to grammar schools: having fewer choices can yield broader social benefits.

I think the OP counts herself very lucky, judging by her post 😂

@OvertutoredMum - I don’t know why you keep banging on about grammar schools, just because I said my older DC went/go to a grammar. They are very academic, we looked at the local schools, that was the best option for them, we did a bit of prep at home with just the cost of books - that is what they wanted and I was happy for them to make that choice. Far cheaper than moving house into a catchment for me. It is also why they went to a church school, wider catchment and we were already part of that community anyway. Why should we have to move house and pay up to get into a good school and then be all smug and pretend we did the “right” thing? Just because going via homeownership seems to be the slightly leftie and acceptable done thing these days. What absolute tosh when you think about it.

Quote your own word "If it’s now no longer socially acceptable to go to private/grammar/faith school, then the middle classes won’t"

I’ve read every post on this thread (not sure why it’s captivated me so much!). There are three things that I’ve gleaned from it

1. nobody is changing anyone’s mind. Those who are opposed to the VAT change oppose it wholesale, and those who support it support it wholeheartedly.

2. there are shades of grey - there are a small minority of people whose choice to send their kids private was born out of desperation because they were let down by the state sector and they may struggle with the VAT change.

3. everyone is really cross about the ‘gaming’ of the current admissions system/catchments and how that inadvertently creates a two-tier school system.

I fully support the VAT change because of the big-picture strategic thinking on inequality, but I think the government need to do a better job of explaining it now that they are in government and not in opposition. It’s a real thing that affects some people’s lives and so they deserve to understand why it’s happening - eg there might be some short-term disruption, or evidence/projections on its impact.

“everyone is really cross about the ‘gaming’ of the current admissions system/catchments and how that inadvertently creates a two-tier school system.”

I think buying your way into catchment is actually in many ways worse than paying for private school as you pay once only and then reap the benefit and then also make money on your own house, tax free. However, I don’t see a way around it. I think children have to be able to go to their local school. I also really do think choice is important and at least where I live, we get a lot of choice of schooling, and even within the comp system, there are huge differences in ethos/discipline/setting/co-ed vs single sex/faith/lanugage focus vs science focus etc etc. The more choice people get, the better because they can choose something they are happy with and that may suit their child/family best.

I certainly would never advocate for bussing kids all over the place unnecessarily and I certainly do not think central government interference in schooling to this level is even healthy. I think LA and academics and heads should have far more choice full stop to choose the type of schooling that suits their communities. Central Governments job is simply to provide sufficient budget.

meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

You are oversimplifying it. The very affluent areas don't have great state schools because most of kids are going to private.
It is the middle class areas where there are good schools

What about the money the private school kids forfeit by not going to a state school? If every private school kid went to a state school, the government would pay 3-6k a year (via tax). Private school kids don't get that money even though their parents still pay that tax! Add VAT, but give that funding to the parents so they can allocate it to the school of their choosing, similar to how the NHS sometimes pays a private hospital for certain procedures. I bet it would break even.

everyone is really cross about the ‘gaming’ of the current admissions system/catchments and how that inadvertently creates a two-tier school system.

I disagree with this. There are clearly a lot of people who remain within the state system because it's possible for them to choose very good schools. One PP actually claimed that they would leave the country rather than face the possibility that they might not be able to choose their DC's schools. That said, I would argue that most of these schools are very good primarily because these type of people choose them and congregate there.

Let me be clear, I don't think that any of these people explicitly want a two-tiered school system. But I think many of them would opt out for private if their only state choices were at the current national average.

So, you're suggesting that the government uses public funds to assist affluent people to buy advantage for their children? That rather than invest public money in state schools where it goes further due to economies of scale, its offered as a handout to help already wealthy people afford their privilege? In all honesty I'd doubt even the most right wing government would adopt that as a policy, never mind this one.

Some countries do this. It means more people can afford private, so evens out the gap between the privileged and not, and costs the gov less overall. I imagine the private schools are a bit more basic, but I don't know that for sure.

Well they are about to put VAT on private “schools” but boost private tutoring so what do you think parents will do? Buy tutoring and a lot of it is going offshore online so zero tax take and advantage for any of us! At least private school teachers and staff are on PAYE.

Well they aren’t getting their pensions paid.

What do you mean? Many private schools are still members of TPS (although more will leave as a result of.this). If a school is not in TPS, it still has to provide a pension scheme.

I’m not claiming that I am - I’m pointing out the impact of the policy on those who place ideology over real life outcomes. We haven’t lost out at all - plenty will.

We never looked at state because both DH and I went to private school and loved it. We looked now because quite simply we are sick of paying more and more tax. Billionaires leave a country because of a little extra income tax so I think another tax - 20% extra on two school bills of £18,500 is worth checking into for a middle class family. Instead now we save the money and other tax payers (you!) pick up my school fee cost 😊. We of course will use private tutors etc if needed so the inequality remains.

Smug? Who, me??

I think you misunderstand what people mean by the ideology underpinning the policy. You seem to be under the impression that its specifically about making you personally suffer. Which is a little presumptious to say the least. Most people who support the policy have little to no interest in whether you are going skiing with the money saved. Some who support it will even be pleased that you've found a way to make it work. All the majority of us coming at it from an ideological standpoint are saying is that we don't think a system that contributes significantly to social inequality should recieve a VAT exemption when the country needs every penny it can get.

There is actually no evidence that wealthy people leave the country due to tax rises, despite threatening to do so. Also, nobody is paying extra for your school place, it simply doesn't work like that, but the extra investment from the VAT on private schools will benefit all state school goers. Your post would only make sense if the money raised from the VAT was less than the cost of finding places for the small number of people who are expected to take their children out of private school, which it clearly won't be.

Yep - opinions are anchored on this. I have appreciated everyone’s points of view but will be leaving this thread now. Good luck everyone with your DC, whether they are state or private schooled ❤️

You're very welcome OP. Just as I'm sure you're delighted that your taxes contribute to my kids education 🤗

What about childless people who don’t see any benefit? Should they get a £6k rebate annually as well, as they aren’t using state schools either?

Your tax is going to pay for the education of the nation, not directly paying for your own child’s education.