Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Wow. I think I know the jobs of about three parents in my kid’s entire school. How do you KNOW this? Do you work for family fortunes?

Google is your friend

The four categories covered in an Ofsted inspection are:

• Quality of education – how well the school provides the education pupils need at that stage of their learning.
• Behaviour and attitudes – how pupils, staff, parents and governors feel about the school, and how pupils behave in and out of lessons.
• Personal development of pupils – how well the schools provides services such as pastoral care, PSHE etc., preparing them for the future.
• Leadership and management – how well the school’s Senior Leadership Team (Headteacher, Deputy Heads and other school leaders) manage the school.

thirdspacelearning.com/blog/ofsted-ratings-reports/

We talk to each other How do you know so few? Didn't you ask other parents about themselves when you were standing around at parties in the younger years or at sports events?

Doctors stand out in particular, because we talked about their experiences after covid. But I know broadly what most parents in DD's year do. I know all the children's names in her year too (they mainly know me as 'DD's mum' ).

Because after primary school my kids walked themselves to school so I never had any interaction with the parents apart from one or two of their new friends. There are also 800 kids in my daughter’s year. I only know their friends.

Average size of an entire primary school in England is 276 pupils, ie most are 1 form entry.

Average secondary school in England is 1,054 pupils, ie average 150 per year.

(Google didn't give me numbers for the rest of the UK but I expect schools are similar or smaller due to lower population density.)

Your experience is far from typical.

I’m just amazed that you know the percentages for a year group of 150 kids.

"Who would imagine that RICH people will make personal choices in the best interests of their families?!?"

My DD is still in primary.

I can calculate the percentages based on knowing what the 90 parents do. Or at least knowing which ones are doctors. It's possible I've missed some who are medically trained but no longer working in that field - I haven't gathered job history, just chatted about things I find interesting (which includes someone having a job in scientific research).

Not entirely sure what you're getting at.

Are you suggesting that only rich people make personal choices in the best interests of their family? So you're ignoring that working class people make choices about things like whether both parents should work full-time - or at all - based on whether the extra salary will cover childcare costs? Or where to live: balancing where they will have family support vs where there are better-paying jobs vs where there are good schools?

Or are you saying that whilst it's OK for everyone else to make these kind of calculations, rich people shouldn't?

It's just a normal part of managing your life as an adult!

But if you want to understand the consequences of a policy, you do have to put yourself into other people's shoes - think about what choices are open to them, and what the consequences of those choices are for them - in order to understand how the policy might change which choice they are likely to make.* *Then you have to think about what will happen if lots of people change their behaviour in that way.

Eg more people working part time leads to the government getting less income tax which in turn leads to them having to cut public services.

Are you suggesting that only rich people make personal choices in the best interests of their family? So you're ignoring that working class people make choices about things like whether both parents should work full-time - or at all - based on whether the extra salary will cover childcare costs? Or where to live: balancing where they will have family support vs where there are better-paying jobs vs where there are good schools?

I'm not sure the poster meant that at all... but most people who have been or are not very well off financially will be able to tell you, is that choice is not something many poor working class people have, yes we may have some choices, but when it comes to some important choices like schools, and where we live, we are limited by lack of money... money is what gives you choice in many situations, particularly education - hence, why the vast majority don't care much about the introduction of VAT to private school fees - as it something that will never be an option for them.

Primary is very different. That was probably the answer you could have given to my question which would have helped it to make sense!

My numbers were in response to a pp who suggested the doctors wouldn't use private schools due to left-wing principles. Anecdote, it's true, but I do think the pp's suggestion is wrong. Many doctors use private schools for their children.

People have different choices, but we all make them. You might not even notice some of your choices because you see immediately that they're worse than the choice you're already making - but they are absolutely there.

But the point I'm making is that those other people's choices - changed by the VAT policy - will also affect you, even if you don't have the choice of private yourself.

They'll take a different job where there's a school they're happy for their kids to go to, so your health centre will be a doctor down and you'll struggle to get appointments. Or else they'll send their kid to state school and keep working part-time: if enough parents do that then the government won't have the money available to give teachers a pay rise, resulting in more strikes at your school, or your DC not having a physics teacher.

You won't realise it's a direct consequence of the VAT policy, and actually neither will the doctor who chooses a different job or the parents of the 50,000 kids in state school in 10 years time who would otherwise have sent them to private school (they might not realise that's why they can't afford it - they'll just look at the numbers and choose state).

But the government should think about it properly. It's completely obvious when you actually think about how the policy will affect the choices people make.

This all very patronising. I’m not sure you intend to be but you are. The government has thought about this and the knock effect. Many people have and agree with it. So those who disagree will have to move on from this. This is same way in which Brexit happened because the vast majority felt patronised by others telling them they know better and don’t make that choice because xy or z will happen.

The government has thought about this and the knock effect

Do you trust all governments this way, or only the Labour Party?

I don't think Labour have thought about it much, they've just assumed it's the right thing to do because it follows their ideology. Typical failing of the left.

And as far as they have bothered to think about it (not much) they've assumed that they'll just get away with it.

I don't intend to move on just yet, thanks. I'll be looking at school admissions results this year and next for a start. And I'm very much hoping that this will stay in the public eye enough that economists will do some analysis in a couple of years time.

That's how democracy works. It's not just about voting: it's about holding governments to account.

As this thread illustrates, private school parents are moving on, they are choosing the best state schools instead. The OP is simply highlighting that. So the tax payer won’t benefit.
The policy was sold as a money maker and to recruit teachers in state.
If those fail to materialise, it’s terrible policy making.

The government has thought about this and the knock effect

Really? the same as about WFA? which is a bit embarrassing for Labour and there is a chance it might end up costing more than saving they expected, especially when processing costs are factored in.

Labour minister Pat McFadden sends message to pensioners after winter fuel payment cut (msn.com)

You might not agree but you won’t convince people by patronising them, Brexit has shown us this. If it turns out to be such a dreadful policy, I’m sure get reversed until then we’ll have to wait and see.

The Labour Party should be negotiating with the EU instead of tinkering with loony private school VAT and WFA cuts on the side. Both policies are a waste of time.
Then we might actually have some hope of better and safer economic times. However, they are too chicken to do that in case it costs them votes.

Surely parent pay private for other reasons though? My children went to an outstanding primary and secondary and both achieved amazing academic success (DD just got 11 x 9’s). But whilst it might be outstanding on paper, the teaching in some subjects left a lot to be desired. The economic teacher was sacked at Easter, and DD had to teach herself a lot of that content. There were a lot of kids that a private school wouldn’t tolerate, or they wouldn’t behave like that there perhaps. Kids who don’t want to be there, who disrupt the class completely. Some teachers in some subject refused to teach their class for a while due to the behaviour of these kids.

The school actually changed its admission policy a couple of years ago and stopped taking from catchment schools as one bordered a poorer area and a lot of the ‘problem children’ came from these primaries. There have been a couple of stabbings, and the rest of things that happen in London borough schools (and elsewhere I’m sure). I’m not saying things don’t happen in private schools but trust me all this wouldn’t as those children would be thrown out I’m sure. There’s a lot of reasons someone would choose private education and I really don’t think finding a place at an outstanding school means you’re getting like for like, as you’re not.

Agree with VAT but all private schools should CLOSE their charitable acts and generosity to state sectors too!

Has Brexit been reversed, though? Seems like it’s the big elephant in the room. It being an unmitigated disaster hasn’t caused a reversal but rather a digging in of heels. Why would this be any different?

Not yet, but I honestly believe it will happen in my lifetime fingers crossed - also changing Brexit is more complicated because it involves other countries not just the UK, even if we begged to return, which I admit hasn’t happened yet, they might say no! So it will be much more difficult. Reversing VAT would be much easier.

Also not sure VAT on private school fees is going to be a disaster - we will have to wait a few years until after it’s happened to see, like with Brexit. Yes I can see why people are not happy having to pay more but they should be taking this up with the schools who keep on increasing the fees year on year. The schools don’t have to pass on this additional in cost - some schools admittedly not all, have huge savings so could absorb this cost if it’s that’s much of any issue for parents.

As I said let’s see what happens first, I am not convinced it’s going to be the disaster people claim!

It will be interesting to see what actually happens after the changes.

Wonder how many more threads like this there will be. People need to move on and get over it. There have been a lot and it all feels a little pointless as no one ever convinces the other side.