Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Some studies have suggested that the VAT won't raise much money, and might even cost the government more. Others (the ones the government are relying on) have predicted that people will carry on paying. It will take quite a few years after the VAT is brough in to know for sure which is correct. Which is a problem, because if the 'doom' theorists are correct, it will be difficult to course correct as schools will have gone bankrupt.

The reason I'm sticking with private is because I feel like I'm too far down the road to change my mind. I'm wondering how many other parents who might have chosen private are going for state in the first place because of all reasons I just outlined. Home school is an increasingly popular option, from what I've observed. Less parents choosing private means less VAT. So where is the money going to come from to improve the state sector?

You seem terribly invested in people's feelings and motivations. Sure, the tone of OP's post is rather goady, but shouldn't we be looking at this objectively? Do the books balance or not? What is in British children's best interests overall?

That was meant to say young carers.

Nor would it at our very excellent state school.

If you understood the difference between correlation and causation then why did you made that broad statement which you can’t back up with any like for like evidence then? Or is your evidence for state school in its entirety based on the sum total of two crap teachers that you encountered? As a researcher you should be able to produce a much better researched statement than that.

@Tiredalwaystired

Where is the well researched evidence that quality of teaching at private schools is not better than at state schools? Do you have any?

If you believe there is no discrepancy in quality of teaching between state and private sectors then what is the point of this policy? Surely everyone is accessing the same level of education already and there is no need for investment.

im not the one making the broad statements. I said “not necessarily best for the individual child”.

This is mumsnet, not a fucking phd love

What you could do if you’re struggling, OP, is to move your DS to a state school after GCSEs, and put your DD in PS until she completes GCSEs before moving her to a state school. You could then split any savings between them. That would be much fairer for them.

exactly It’s a space for debate. If you throw out the patronising “I’m a researcher” card and offer terrible research I’m going to challenge it. What I won’t do is become rude.

People don't necessarily choose private because the teaching is better.

Well, I said that in response to your incredibly patronising comment to me, which, a few posts after me saying I attended a violent and failing school and was homeless at 17 meant you came across a little badly.

And I think you'll find that you were the person who made overly confident statements about the differences in attainment being about SEG related issues rather than the schools themselves. Did you evidence that?

The issue is that there is no controlled quant research about teaching standards, all we have is results, govt/ industry knowledge and personal experience. On balance, I'm still confident that I'm correct - you are more likely to get decent teaching in a private school overall. Exam results are not wholly down to the families of the children - the teachers do have an impact there.

You waded into a discussion I was having with another poster and was quite rude about.

People don't necessarily choose private because the teaching is better.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I never said they did!

I don't believe that teaching is inherently better in private schools. It is, however, far less frequently interrupted, deliberately pushed off course or otherwise made more difficult than it needs to be by children who can't be bothered. Private school children go to school knowing that their job when they arrive there is to learn. Doing well is cool, not laughed at or picked at. You can be both a geek and a prized athlete with a grade 8 in piano to boot. They don't expect teachers to entertain them, they just get on with learning.

Obviously, there are exceptions but the threat is always expulsion if you can't shut up for long enough for a teacher to deliver a lesson. State schools don't have that. And importantly, the kids know that.

Our children would be best served with a much wider range of educational provision to meet children where they're at. Ensuring we have a social work system that is fit for purpose, picking children up and supporting struggling families. Functioning mental health services with a focus on prevention and fast tracking to individualised support when needed. A benefits system that supports all children and doesn't expect adults who care to do it for £100 a week.

Random allocation in the case of oversubscribed schools will not necessarily lead to "identikit solutions". If a school has a reputation as being less academically pushy, it may well be more attractive to many parents than one which has better results but a reputation of being very pushy with lots of tutored kids. Similarly, a school with a reputation for being less strict about minor uniform infractions may be more attractive to many parents than, say, Michaela, results be damned. And a school which has a reputation of being for "posh" families might well be less attractive for some. Many different characters of schools can coexist. But anyone who thinks that an oversubscribed academically pushy, or behaviourally strict, or "posh" school is right for them and lives within a reasonable commute would have a chance at a place.

That is where you get the adults in the room and brainstorm and innovate.

So you don't have any ideas yourself. Who are these "adults" and why haven't they come up with a solution already?

I thought it was implied. But I have re-read your post and see that what you're actually saying is that if there was no difference in the quality of teaching between state and private, then state schools wouldn't be in need of additional investment and the VAT policy therefore wouldn't be needed.

I don't agree with this. I don't actually think there is a real difference in the quality of teaching between the two sectors. I think you get good and bad teachers in both sectors, and bright children with supportive and financially comfortable parents will likely excel in any environment.

However, I think state schools need more resource precisely because not all children come from those stable and supportive backgrounds. Many children need intensive support and intervention to address the impact of the multiple disadvantages that they may start with, and schools simply don't have the resource to do this. This is of course compounded by the larger class sizes etc in the state sector, which are actually fine for those bright supported kids but not so good for those who need more focused input.

The sad irony is that the children who would stand to benefit the most from what private schools have to offer never get to go.

And the children who do go to private schools are very frequently the types that would thrive almost anywhere.

Why do you think people choose private, out of interest?

Actually, kind of agree with this. My (very nice!) state primary had a separate, smaller class for the children having difficulties. The children able to work independently were put in classes of 32. It was about need, rather than who could pay, and it was possible to move into the larger class next year if you managed to catch up. I'm not sure why more state schools don't do this. It doesn't cost any more.

I don't think it's possible to answer that question, as people will have all manner of reasons for choosing private schools - some perfectly reasonable and rational, others not, but it isn't really my business either way. If they can afford it and that's how they want to spend their money, I have no issue with it.

That’s good to hear!

(if I were less trusting I might think that some posters even pretend to be private school parents, and make up ridiculously entitled OPs just to incite argument)

We chose it for better SEN provision (though not at the level of EHCP or whatever the English thingy is), and the fact the the school had actual classrooms and teachers (rather than portacabins with supervision of physics and chemistry by the gym teacher), and we felt the private school were more likely to remember to actually submit the children for the right exams (which the old school failed to do). Living rurally there was no other choice of high school.

Personally I would much rather have kept them in state, but have been very pleased with their relatively modest private school. I fully recognise our privilege in being able to do it (by extending the mortgage for a number of years). We’re going to be OK with the VAT personally, but others in a similar situation won’t be.

I’d MUCH rather we all paid more and had decent state schools, but that’s not going to be a quick fix.

@MyNameIsFine

IMO, they choose private for:
Smaller class sizes - therefore more individual attention
Facilities
'Soft skills' - oratory (debating etc), presentation skills - the literal sense of presenting yourself well which brings confidence (sometimes false confidence - think of all those former Etonians who genuinely seem to think they know it all..... Boris, Kwasi et al)

I don’t really see the point here. How would you have ‘never considered state school’ before? It literally was never even in your thoughts to send your children anywhere other than private school and now a VAT charge (which you can afford) has changed your mind? I dont get it?? Also see how she is in a year or 2 in a state school… be interested to know if she is still there or not.

I’ve read it and I still agree yes. ( Teacher for over 20 years, own kids in state school)

Where I live there are 2 outstanding secondary schools (3 if you count one of the SEN schools.) One is a Catholic school so we wouldn't get in, (not religious and my children hate the thought of church) the other is right at the opposite side of the borough so we'd never get in on distance.
It's a deprived area. There are no private schools. The closest is an hour by car in rush hour or 1.5 - 2 hours on public transport.

The 20% raised should be put into state education so that children in areas such as mine have as good an education as those who have the option of going to private school.

No Private school I know (and I know a few) is a charity, so why should parents not pay fees. Not doing so means less income for the government, and all taxpayers who send their children to state schools are effectively subsisting you.

Bring it on ASAP.