Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

@MyNameIsFine "
Why do you think people choose private, out of interest?"

If I had decided to choose private school it would have been because most of the extracurriculars my kids wanted to do would have happened at school. I wouldn't have had to drive round like a blue arsed fly delivering this one to that and that one to this... Just drop off at 8.30 and pick up at 6.00. Bliss.

Only because of the grammar system, many a child is sent to an independent school because they don't pass the Kent Test!

Unfortunately, whilst the grammar school's are generally excellent, the same can't be said for most of the non selective schools in Kent!

Most secondaries do. Sets get smaller as they get less able (in my last school, 31 in a top set, 6 in the bottom)

Pay it or go state like most people. Why are your children more special than anyone else’s???

VAT on school fees is only a good idea when every child has the opportunity to secure a place at a decent state school.

We are a long way from that point sadly. Without the investment in state education coming first, the policy is poorly thought out and will significantly increase the pressure on an already overstretched (and sometimes failing) system.

The OP can spend her income (which she has paid tax on) as she sees fit. Spending it on independent schooling would have saved the state £7k pa per child, and free'd up a decent state place. Instead, the VAT policy has resulted in a cost to the tax payer, one less decent state place and for no financial gain. OP is not gloating, simply making the point that hers wont be the only family to make this choice, added to those that can no longer afford to pay and it's a frightening proposition of additional spending, less places and no gain!

I would add that taxing education can never be a good policy, such policy won't effect the truly wealthy and there has been no thought or concern about the children who will have education disrupted.

Its a vote winner purely from the envious, we should be looking to drag the bottom up, not the middle down!

Schools, possibly accepting specialist schools, are not charities and therefore shouldn’t benefit from tax breaks. The best thing for our country overall is to improve on the state provision for all our nation’s children and hopefully this is what will start to happen.

I've not RTFT but I've seen loads of mumsnet posts on this topic recently and I do wonder where people's sense of social justice has disappeared to.

Parents who send their kids to Private Schools really admit they do so because their children receive a better level of education there. Class sizes are smaller, resources are better, teachers are more highly qualified, there's a wide range of subjects, opportunities etc, etc, etc...

Do they not think that children from poor backgrounds also deserve all those things. Do they think that, just because a child has the misfortune to be born into an economically deprived family they deserve a substandard education. That they don't deserve to be afforded the same opportunities as children from richer backgrounds?

As long as privileged rich parents can afford to 'opt out' of state education then there is no motivation or incentive to improve state education. Do you really think if the likes of Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson or any of the Tory party donors were forced to put their kids into their local comp they also wouldn't be pushing for better provision for their children?

For too long decisions on public services have been made by people who have never had to use those services. Decisions are being made by people who have no skin in the game.

That people think that kids from poor backgrounds (through no fault of their own) deserve substandard education is completely abhorrent to me

We are now sending our DC to state 6th form. All his friends are applying too.

We will save the extra money we will have. That’ll be about 40k over 2 years. Labour will have to pay £14k over 2 years for my DC to go there.

It actually feels good to get something back for a change, rather than being a cash cow who Labour want to milk dead.

'you must remove their ability to take the shortcut of sending their children to the limited number of schools which are currently very good'

Yup - I don't have a solution but I am perfectly allowed to denounce a ridiculous one and highlight the need for better solutions.

And your latest response is exactly the point - there are varied views on education, on homework, on academic pushiness. That variety and the option to access them should be baked into the solutions not taken away. Currently, if my type of school is not in my locality - I can move house, access a private option if one exists close to me, find religion if it meets my needs etc. Solutions that enable more people to have options are good. Solutions that suggest taking away options so NO ONE has options are a non- starter. Hope that helps

im afraid your theory is very flawed. For instance, private heathcare is available for planned medical interventions; tests or operations but that is not the case for emergencies. If anyone needs A&E help (heart attack, stroke etc) you have to dial 999 and rely on the NHS. Given your logic our A&E facilities therefore should be amazing. Do you think that is the case?

Totally agree with you!
Most of the parents will suck it up, and those who don't, well...

I think it’s an incredibly short sighted policy which has been done not for money but to appease criticism re elitism. Once charitable status is removed almost certainly schools will stop sending their language and music staff into nearby state schools ( which they do frequently due to shortages ) ; stop allowing state schools to use their facilities ( labs, sports grounds, theatres, swimming pools etc) because I suspect it was rarely motivated by generosity but more by keeping the conditions. Additionally bursaries and scholarships will be slashed so you’ll end up with the super wealthy. ( a third of children currently receive financial support at private schools - some like Christs college support the majority of their pupils financially). Regardless of whether or not you agree with independent schools the reality is this will simply hammer local state schools - the Uber rich will still continue to go private - the middles will simply push up property prices in the nearest catchment areas of great schools ( all too few and far between) pushing out people who might just have squeezed into the catchment. Even if every single penny from every single independent school fee went to state schools it’s going to take years to improve infrastructures, build new schools ( because many have expanded as much as they possibly can even using playground/ playing fields) , put necessary repairs in place and train and develop enough teachers in hideously short supply subjects ( most people who’ve studied econ , sciences or languages can find far more financially rewarding work elsewhere). It also won’t address the massive SEND provision shortage - where currently some of the parents of neuro divergent children cripple themselves to put their youngsters into more bespoke, smaller class schools. ( Montessori, Waldorf, dyslexia specialist, boarding etc).

I still agree with the vat.

Charity status is not affected, so the approx 50% of schools that have it will have to continue with their charitable activities.

For us - it is simply the cohort. Our kids went to a state primary school where parents protested having homework. Regardless of link to eventual grades (who cares at primary stage), the discipline and work ethic of homework is what we value. Small example but the culture change to one similar to our values is what we needed. And a state school with similar values in close proximity was not available to us.

Absolutely this. You're in the catchment area and have your place, which your daughter is entirely entitled too.

Yeap. Exactly that.

anywhere you look, if you have favorable cards in your hand and a brain…you will have the best of a situation. This will happen a lot but I also suspect that it will raise the score of the state schools and more school will become better because children like yours and the ones they “took the place of” attend state. So ultimately, Labour will have both strikes : the money from vat and the scores going higher.

I am sure people are happy for you OP. Of cause your children are your priority. Even though now because of VAT, you are choosing to not pay additional VAT (which you have repeatedly said you can afford), to send your DD to a state school, so you can all go on extra holidays. So the choice of you not sending your Daughter to the public school will only impact most on your family and your daughter. Growing up - Daughter "why did brother get to stay at public school with all his friends and I ended up in sh#te state school with no one, and all my rich friends went onto the next expensive school". "Son - "Why has Sister got bigger nest egg" Your emotional intelligence is lacking, but I often find that with people in your position. Mind you curve ball here hasn't the deputy prime minister only got an NVQ in social care? Where as I am guessing on what you have stated you can afford, it has to be something like banking or Financial Services??? So alot of input for less influence than a social care NVQ.

This is such a weird thing to say when you've just had fourteen years of the other lot. You've had about ten minutes of being 'milked' by Labour when the rest of us have watched public services get squeezed and cut and diminished in a thousand ways for a decade and a half. I hope your DC has a lovely time at sixth form. It might make you realise what a lot of money you've spunked on private education that was a complete waste, because you were sold the belief that it made you better and your children cleverer and your family happier. It's just advertising.

It is just for a year 🤦🏼‍♀️
and Inthink before she starts…and many of others are doing that too…oh and also maybe she agrees?

they have money, they don’t lack heart or sense 😵‍💫 It is obvious they put loads of thoughts in this so you just pushing the button “you make a gender discrimination and both kids will hate you for it” don’t seem to see the whole lot of opps both children have in front of them and how well the parents are managing these exactly.

keep up op, and forget jealous ones 🌺

Fewer private schools would be better for everyone. The state sector wouldn't need to compete for staff, there would be a more even field when progressing to university and it could also create a more inclusive society.
Similar principles apply for private medical care. You won't be helping the NHS by going private. You would will be funding the profit making companies that will be competing for the medics and nurses that the NHS needs as well giving money to lobyst that push for the privatisation of the NHS services.
Some services should remain in public hands for the benefit of the society.
Health and education shouldn't be for profit business imo.

Nobody has said that poorer children deserve substandard education. Nobody at all wants that. Of course, parents choose the best school for their child relative to their circumstances, isn’t that natural? Are you telling me that most wouldn’t consider schooling when they pick their house, for example?

I read a thread a few days ago about grammar schools where the op was asking for advice or whether to put their child in for the test - the answer was a unanimous yes. They paid for tutoring. How is that different? Nobody there mentioned privilege, unfairness etc.

The disagreement comes in whether this is the right policy, aimed in the right place to achieve an increase in standards. I really doubt it is.

You forgot to quote the first half of my sentence:

'If you want "sharp elbowed, middle class" parents to push through the reform and improvement of the entire state system, of all state schools, you must remove their ability to take the shortcut of sending their children to the limited number of schools which are currently very good.'

I don't have a solution but I am perfectly allowed to denounce a ridiculous one

I can see how this solution is ridiculous for you, since you actually have the ability to benefit from choices, specifically the ability to go private to choose the cohort your DC are educated with. Having that ability, you have no incentive to push for the reform and improvement of the entire state system, of all state schools.

Hope that helps

Absolutely. I don't think I could have made up a better illustration of my point.

I think people know the consequences; still in favour.