Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Yup - we have done this as have many of our friends. It is clearly an advantage for young adults to start off without debt - if possible. Some of our friends who have done this are not very wealthy (above average earning professionals), they just saved over time to ensure they could do this so their kids have a great start.

In general, children raised in aspirational homes become aspirational themselves. And whatever your earning, not having a certain amount automatically (graduate tax) deducted must help. And they then pass on the same work ethic and outlook to their kids.

I'm really very sorry to hear that. It sounds like you did well in spite of your parents and not because of them.

I was very fortunate to have wonderful parents and I recognise that this was a real privilege that many kids aren't lucky enough to have. For me, this just underlines why we need to invest more in education to give every child the very best opportunity to fulfil their true potential. Of course, we are never going to completely level out the playing field for those kids that don't have parents that can help them, but we should absolutely be doing more to try and reduce that gap.

Correlation is not causation. It’s because those that invest financially in their children’s education are also likely to be more engaged in their child’s education.

In a state school you are also dealing with families whose poverty and living conditions means that education is lower on their agenda. So percentage wise this drops.

private schools just remove the negative outliers from their pool by financial selection. It doesn’t mean they’ll always do better for an individual child.

Additional rate of income tax and capital gains tax come to mind, as well as other taxes on unearned income such as private equity carried interest. All these taxes will be more progressive than VAT on private education in that they will redistribute more money from the very wealthy and less from the upper middle class. And they wouldn't have the effect of discouraging spending on education that the VAT change will.

@Tiredalwaystired

I'm a researcher so I don't need correlation and causation explained to me, cheers.

But, for reference, my GCSE science teacher taught us that the Big Bang was the most probable cause of existence and my A Level English teacher could barely spell.

Not sure that kind of shit would fly at your average independent school,

Everyone with a university education themselves needs to remind themselves that whatever school does or does not do is only ever a small part of the picture in their DCs overall attainment.

This is kind of inverse snobs I hear from those mums who advocated for 11 plus selective education as an elite education.

Its almost as if people are posting determined to show the worst of Private School Parents rather than the majority of us who would rather not pay an extra 20% but will just quietly do so (minus the odd grumble amongst friends) and not consider ourselves hard done by at all.

Most of the privately educating families that I know in RL have a similar attitude to yours...not necessarily thrilled to pay extra but perfectly able to recognise their own privilege and willing to accept it.

It is just a small but very vocal minority that seem to be hell bent on telling us how outrageously unfair it all is. Please be assured that we don't all assume that they are representative of private school parents in general!

This.

I believe most very good state schools are that way because they manage to concentrate families where the parents have the ability and the willingness to support their children's educations. Some schools achieve that by selecting for academically high performing children who, on average, will have parents with that ability and willingness. Others achieve that by selecting for children whose parents are able and willing to demonstrate commitment to a religion. Still others achieve that by selecting for parents who can afford to and choose to live in an expensive area.

As long as the state continues to facilitate the self-selection of well resourced and supportive families into a limited number of very good schools, the state will continue to find that other schools remain not so good. If you want "sharp elbowed, middle class" parents to push through the reform and improvement of the entire state system, of all state schools, you must remove their ability to take the shortcut of sending their children to the limited number of schools which are currently very good.

The same applies to teachers and teaching resources as well. Some self-select into these bubble environments, which are often populated by middle-class parents disguised within the ‘state’ system

“As long as the state continues to facilitate the self-selection of well resourced and supportive families into a limited number of very good schools, the state will continue to find that other schools remain not so good. If you want "sharp elbowed, middle class" parents to push through the reform and improvement of the entire state system, of all state schools, you must remove their ability to take the shortcut of sending their children to the limited number of schools which are currently very good.“

That can only work in places like London where you have excellent free public transport for under 16s and you have millionaires living a street away from large council estates.
If you bring that kind of model to a quite deprived area, then the remaining privileged people leave, including doctors and teachers if you force that model on them. That is the reality on the ground.
Whilst the system here is far from perfect, at least in many cities there is some choice. Choice is good, it means parents can choose a state school that may suit their DCs and family, be that in terms of discipline, ethos, academic push etc.
Most state primary schools in England pre Covid were actually doing an amazing job at brining up standard of English and Maths amongst more deprived children. Covid has created all sorts of issues.

The truth is this Government has no cash to fully reform the state sector and make it equal for all. What they need to focus on is the most urgent question and that is children with SEN and they know it as well.

The Government should work with successful schools and make sure all content for all public exams is fully and freely available online for all. That would make a big difference. Every model taught online so that poorer kids with temporary staff who are motivated stand a chance. There is quite a fair bit there already but it is piecemeal.

@trickortrickier

Random allocation of school places is likely to:

1. Cause more environmental damage due to increased number of journeys.

1. Create higher costs for families to get kids to and from school.

3 Increase pressure on working parents by lengthening the school run.

1. Increase school absence in families were education is not prioritised as the parent or the kid might be more likely to not bother with the journey.

I totally agree. Funding solutions like PRUs, Special Schools etc properly, improves the classroom experience in comprehensives as well and makes teaching in comprehensives easier too.

It's bizarre to me that you think this post would change anyone's mind on VAT on private schools.

Are we supposed to change our minds because we feel sad for the kid who didn't get the place your DD has taken at the state school? I am pleased your child will be able to access an outstanding state school. I also think that there will be less tolerance for the shit state schools with more parents pushed into using them.

Private schools are not charities, they are businesses and should be treated as such.

That can only work in places like London

Over 80% of England lives in urban areas. In these areas, it should be possible to have, at secondary, a random allocation in case of oversubscription to all applicants living within 30 minutes commute, either by walking or public transportation.

Choice is good

Limited choice is also what facilitates inequality within the state system. Some state schools are very good, indeed, for those who have that choice. But those who don't may be limited to a selection of bad schools. The question is whether society prioritizes convenience and/or individual preferences at the expense of inequality.

I have read it.

I still agree with VAT on private school fees.

I would rather move away from the UK than have no choice and have to send my kids to some randomly allocated school. I strongly value being able to walk to school, even at secondary or a very short bike ride. Others would value other things.

Why promote some identikit solution instead of even more choice and look to innovate to deliver that? Come up with solutions to improve attitudes to education in all families etc
This is after all one of the richest countries in the world!

I would rather move away from the UK than have no choice and have to send my kids to some randomly allocated school.

That's funny... I'm hearing similar things about the very wealthy and the changes to the non-dom regime and, potentially, skilled immigrants choosing to take their talents elsewhere because of the cost of private schools and the vagaries of getting places in state schools. Not too many people on this thread seem to be worried about that.

Others would value other things.

Absolutely. And most, including yourself, don't place enough value on equality in state schools to be willing to make changes.

Why promote some identikit solution instead of even more choice and look to innovate to deliver that? Come up with solutions to improve attitudes to education in all families etc

I'm listening. Or can you only criticize unconstructively?

People are worried about their own children, but they know that no one else is. So they emphasise how this will affect education at a broader level.

The problem with the VAT on 'luxury' education, is that the luxury element is looking increasingly bad value. With the boom in all types of afterschool clubs, holiday clubs, online learning and tutoring clubs offering exactly what they private schools are offering, why pay school fees, plus extras (like sport, drama, music), plus VAT? The VAT alone could buy your child into a weekend music school for a whole year.

My taxes haven't increased to pay the increased contribution to the teacher pension, or the higher heating bills, but private school fees have - and the offering hasn't improved at all. Some of the teachers are excellent, others are dreadful. The government seems to be banking on parents carrying on paying and not noticing what dreadful value for money they're getting. I wonder how much longer it can go on for?

Thank you for your honesty. I think you're right in saying that people are concerned about their own children but are trying to create an argument about less privileged children in order to get people to engage. The trouble with that is that it's so obviously disingenuous that it backfires on them -:their argument would probably be far more powerful if they focused on their actual concerns, some of which might be legitimate.

With regards to the rest of your post, I don't really understand. If you don't feel that private education is offering good value for money (and fwiw, I agree with you that it often doesn't) then why not just send your kids to state schools instead and use the money that you save to enhance their education and experiences in other ways. Nobody is forcing you to go private, are they? Or is the issue that you don't want to move them now they're there?

I am not for equality. I am for equity. Giving everyone the same thing is ridiculous. What is required is to give everyone what the need.

There is zero point and value in giving everyone a bicycle to get to work in the name of equality if some people have paralysis and therefore cannot ride it.

That is where you get the adults in the room and brainstorm and innovate. Not spew identikit solutions in the name of 'equality'. We are not made equal so what I need to thrive is different from what you need

I think you are lucky living where you do op. I live in an area of superb state secondaries and the main admission categories are feeder schools of which none are independent.

Children who are eg young caters cannot be made to commute. So many poor children are relied upon by their often single parents to look after younger siblings. Surely the solution is to give the poorest children first choice of schooling?