Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

“Productivity isn’t gained from the push from parents at an early age.“

Depends on your definition of push?

Good upbringing, reading, maths skills, healthy food, talking, good mental health - those are the foundations.

That is precisely why Labour are going to try and tackle early years.

You see a lot of good parenting leads to productivity later on. There is consensus on that across the whole political spectrum. It is nought to do with money although having a stable home life obviously makes that a lot easier.

Academies are known to “bend” the admissions code and exclude poorer trouble makers with SEN. So of course some will make way for rich private school kids, within the rules of course. Faith schools typically govern their own admissions too.
Some of you are very naive as to what actually happens in reality.
All schools want high achieving kids from nice families and there is competition for these DCs, whether anyone likes it or not. Higher results then ensure an easier catchment, which then makes teacher recruitment easier too.

@Sally20099 "regarding DD getting most of the school fees savings invested into a fund for her I have definitely considered the points made many times that it is unfair on DS so we will split the savings 50/50 - thank you for helping me with that one"

The fact that you say this did not occur to you until a couple of strangers on the internet pointed it out makes me question the veracity of your whole post, to be honest.

I think everyone needs to stop thinking they are doing poor people a favour by sending their kids to private school. Just pay your VAT. It's simple. If you can't then you can't afford private school and you go to the schools provided for by the UK state- which sees incredible success rate in uni admissions and careers.
It's insane that everyone is complaining about this.

"I have a hunch."- more like a preconceived notion tbh

Yes it is, as long as it's not overly-pushy parenting.

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/british-nagging-parents-study/

I am not sure @CurlewKate - I think a lot of these private school parents just paid up for legacy reasons as the whole family etc went private. And so private schools just kept upping fees and employing more and more people and building ever more shiny facilities. Then you have a sudden shock like a penalty tax and the whole house of cards comes crumbling down.

Years ago I considered Westminster School very briefly for my gifted DS. I am sure it was just over 20k in those days. I happened to check the fees yesterday just out of curiosity. It is now a whopping 37k a year for Year 9 onwards plus VAT that makes it over 44 k now a year! Before you even add in the extras. You could hire a whole private teacher for that kind of money and pay umpteens Indian and Chinese PhDs to tutor your DCs at A level. I know that school does a ton of outreach and has partnerships with state schools and bursaries, but essentially those private school parents are already contributing that way. They won’t surely be able to keep the academic strength long term with those kind of fees, it is just madness. Or they will have to offer more and more bursaries. I think even the top private schools must be worried.

So as long as your kids are thriving in the state sector, doesn't matter about the rest?

Welcome to the world most people live in! Nearly everyone I know has enough on their plate worrying about their own children. But I hope you and Jeremy Corbyn enjoy your chats at the allotment.

Lol - that is the point of having wealth. To make life easier for your offspring. You can't tax that and expect people to be aspirational. You need to try and create the same aspirational mindset across the country not reduce what little there is

This is hilarious! 🤣 you’d be an extremist in North Korea with these views. You want to tax peoples spending on their children?! It already exists anyway - it’s called inheritance tax.

"they were less likely to become pregnant"

That doesn't sound like increase productivity to me.

I am just making a comparison on some of the "paying privileges" on some of the example that some previous poster make, some say it might be more economical to pay state education than pay for deposit or living expenses for their children in adults lift. I don't think giving deposit is part of the inherencr tax.

Putting savings all for DD sounds like it could lead to resentment with DS if they also would have been happy to go to a state school and pocket the cash but weren't given that as an option. Spending it on ensuring DD has the same access to the 'extras' the state school doesn't provide (sports, music etc) would seem to make more sense to ensure a level playing field and then splitting between the two of them....

I'm not a communist either; I'm a self-employed higher rate tax-payer and happy to contribute my fair share for a fairer society. Even from a purely self-interested perspective, it is to my benefit for all kids to get a good education - better for the economy, better for crime rates, better for health outcomes, etc. As you say, the mechanisms already exist within the state sector to facilitate fairer school funding. People who can afford private school fees can afford to pay more tax instead, rather than buying success for their little smashers.

I honestly think the far left and far right as bad as each other. I happened to be at Trafalgar Square on Sunday at 1.30pm (by accident, just walking past to go meet some friends) and ended up witnessing the Tommy Robinson lot - largely white, tattooed, clearly poor etc and entitled. Obviously, it is the immigrants to blame for their lack of getting anywhere in life! And for the far left, it is those who aspire for their DCs and dare to elevate themselves or their DC and dare to get well paying jobs. How dare you want more for you and yours? When you should be happy with “community” alone.

“I'm not a communist either; I'm a self-employed higher rate tax-payer and happy to contribute my fair share for a fairer society. Even from a purely self-interested perspective, it is to my benefit for all kids to get a good education - better for the economy, better for crime rates, better for health outcomes, etc. As you say, the mechanisms already exist within the state sector to facilitate fairer school funding. People who can afford private school fees can afford to pay more tax instead, rather than buying success for their little smashers.“

I agree with everything except for the last sentence. There are privileged state schools that are no different than many private schools. If you ban private schools, successful connected people just create country clubs and finishing balls for their DCs to meet. It is all pointless interference and costs people “choice”, which some people need because they have kids with SEN. If the state sector were perfectly fair across the board and catered for additional needs, the matter would be different. As it is not, this vanity project is just going to cost the tax payer and get the Tories back in.

I agree with the VAT.
Is your post supposed to be provocative?

Incorrect - everything I have done is to support/ help my own children. What a surprise they are my priority - I’ve not pretended otherwise. I’m pointing out that all the hate for private school parents / children and the ideological desperation to tax private school children hasn’t impacted our family whatsoever - it’s helped to the tune of c£20k per year. We would never have looked at state other than all the talk about VAT and non charitable status etc as my family have always just ended up at private school. We have a great school, a bigger nest egg for DD, extra holidays etc. the state is £7k down per year (or however much they spend per pupil). This is a classic “policy of envy“ own goal and has not helped society or the state finances one bit. 🤷‍♂️ Just my own.

What exactly is the purpose of your post here?

What did you want to achieve?

I think you want people to realise the error of their ways because your daughter is now taking one space in a state school that could have gone to someone else. And if pesky Labour hadn't tried to balance spending and investment in public services by taxing those most able then one other child could have had the space your daughter is taking?

But of course you didn't need to take that space even with the VAT because you are considerably richer than most?

What is your solution for investing in public services - or do you not think that public school, health care etc need additional funding?

I mean, being so wealthy and all, surely you have considerably better brainpower and imagination than most to come up with some workable suggestions?

“Politics of envy” is such a lazy trope, trotted out by those that are disgruntled whenever their privilege is questioned.

If the state sector were perfectly fair across the board and catered for additional needs, the matter would be different. As it is not, this vanity project is just going to cost the tax payer and get the Tories back in.

As it is not, we could try making it so, by fairer funding. Allowing the wealthy (including lots of MPs) to buy their way out of the system is not likely to improve it.

Maybe this will push standards and outcomes up in state schools. Supportive families and kids that will succeed. I find it a bit hard to believe someone sending a child to a school that costs £19k can't afford the VAT on it, come on.

If this policy doesn't raise the money that Labour has promised it will, then it certainly won't push up standards and outcomes.

@Araminta1003 the policy didn’t keep the Tories in did it. I very much doubt it will be the catalyst to get them back in either. For most people this is a very marginal issue.

What will hopefully start to be seen under Labour is greater investment in state schools, better terms for the workforce, initiatives to improve children’s health (teaching teeth cleaning) & better outcomes & behaviour (linked to them having breakfast clubs). All of which will be generally well received by the population. Obviously it won’t change the whole sector overnight but like @Sally20099 has found, the state system already has existing excellent provision and we need to aspire to implement that more broadly.

Also 'late we just accepting that ofsted rated ' outstanding' schools are the best? I know of many schools that are rated less than this that are actually better for the child than the one that can put on a performance on the day of inspection . So the poor deprived child that you have taken a place off will likely be ok. Also my child
Goes to an outstanding state school, after school sports are frequently cancelled, parents evenings online and half the teachers don't turn up, Pastoral support is stretched to say the least and the food provision is appalling. I'd stick to your private school if I was you.