Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Also, an access/entry policy that is both fairer and more universal ensures that teaching resources are balanced.

I think a lot of people on this thread are conveniently ignoring that not all state schools are equal and plenty of parents (including me) got educational advantages for their kids by buying an expensive house in a catchment of outstanding schools.

Maybe as it's DD it's not so important in their eyes. If you could afford it and really felt it was better you would pay it so must be a sexist decision to put holiday and a dowry over education

Someone will come along saying where not rich we absolutely had to spend this amount due to.......despite most people not having that much spare over a lifetime even if eating bread and water.

How would that be the same as what you gave your son?

It's good that you acknowledge that you're motivated by doing the best for your own kids. I understand that and it's fair enough. Most families do the same, and that is why it is essential for the government to ensure that it is doing everything it possibly can to level the playing field for those kids whose parents can't or won't give them the best opportunities. But we have seen thread upon thread with posters pretending that they are opposed to this policy because of some perceived impact on poorer children, and this argument is really disingenuous.

Based on your own situation, you might think that there is no social benefit arising from this policy. I disagree. Firstly, I think it will raise revenue as I think most private school parents will find the extra money and keep their kids where they are. Secondly, I think it's much better for society if privileged kids like your daughter (and indeed my own) mix with kids from a wide range of social backgrounds that they would be unlikely mix with in the private sector. I watched my own dd's growing awareness of the injustices in our society as a result of what she saw in school, and I believe that she is much more committed to fighting those injustices than she would have been if she had never left her secure middle class bubble. I had a similar journey myself.

As far as I'm concerned, this really isn't about the politics of envy in the slightest. We could have afforded private for dd but chose to send her to state instead. If anything, I feel a little bit sorry for you that you seem to have pissed tens of thousands up the wall in school fees for your ds because it didn't even occur to you to even consider the local state options.

For most of us, support for this policy take isn't about jealousy or wanting to be vindictive towards kids in private schools - it is about fairness. Many of us perceive private school as a luxury option for those who can afford it, and as such, we believe that VAT should apply. It is perfectly reasonable to hold a different view, but please don't assume that everyone who supports the policy is envious. That isn't what it is about at all.

So in the past you spent all that money so someone else could go to an outstanding school.....come on it's just because you don't want to waste money on a girl and fancy your 4/5 th holiday a year most people can't afford one.

But your post implies your ideology of not paying anymore tax is more important than your daughter's education....so the same

We aren't ignoring it, but that isn't what this particular thread is about. I've said loads of times on these boards that I would prioritise measures to address inequalities in the state sector over and above the VAT on private schools. For example, I would get rid of all state funded grammar schools and faith schools and I would look at ways of reforming admissions processes to address the issue of people buying their way into good catchment areas.

I dread to think of the strength of middle class wrath that would be unleashed on MN if I ever got into power!!

No they just take on the students they want, and the students they don’t want, they can legitimately say there is no space.

The other interesting thing that is happening is the ire is being directed at the Government policy only. Surely the private schools should be doing their level best to retain their existing cohort and recruit their next? So it will be interesting to see when the details of the policy are fully provided just what the private schools are going to do to help their own student pool.As with any business they have to be competitive to get customers, it will be interesting to see what they do.

University is education available to all who pass the grade not excluding lower incomes. Private school is only available to the rich even if the child is incapable of passing A levels if you have enough money your in....that makes it a luxury as you could access free education. Personally I don't agree with fees for university but at least you only pay it if you achieve a higher salary.

Neither of you seem to understand what the Admissions person/committee does (which is fair enough, why would a teacher need to know Admissions Law or process, after all? It's not as though they're needed to offer an assessment of the legalities, numbers or outcomes, anymore than a teacher needs to know how SIMS gets people onto Parentpay or the live link to the DfE for attendance monitoring is maintained).

They assess the applications against the published determined admissions arrangements and offer people in the order of place on the waiting lists - and then let the HoY know there are some parents to arrange a meeting for.

They've already got to the top of the list and there are spaces, hence being invited to a meeting - no point wasting the HoY's time with somebody who is just State-curious.

You might believe they are deliberately being creamed off the top of applications, but they aren't and anybody who works in Admissions or on the committee would very probably be offended that their own colleagues believe that they're being anything but absolutely scrupulous in applying the admissions criteria.

I can't even!!! 🤦‍♀️🙄

You are spending 20k on your son's schooling, putting 12k a year into a savings account for your daughter AND having an 'extra' winter holiday - and you're STILL trying to garner sympathy?? Really?

I'm a teacher - lowly state school so you'd not want to associate with the likes of me 🙄

I'm also a single mum of 2...my salary is less than what you are paying for your DS schooling and DD 'savings' - no winter holidays for us...no summer holidays either!

I have no grudge against the private sector at all (why would I?) and I'm
Happy that many parents have the privilege of being able to afford it...but come on!! Read the sodding room here...most of us are struggling to keep a rented room over our heads...30% of children in this country are living in EXTREME poverty!

My heart bleeds for you OP, it really does! 🎻

Enjoy your 'extra' winter holiday 👌🏻

Economic growth is the key which I think everyone agrees on. Reallocating the same pie every year doesn’t / can’t work. We need the pie to grow. I would definitely agree that more investment is needed in public services. Everyone should be able to see a doctor at a time of need without waiting 3 weeks or 10 hours in A&E; decent schools can support a better society; the scale of abuse on girls/women should be a national scandal, boys should be able to go out without the risk of a manic with a machete chasing them as a possible risk etc etc. These things are far more important than tax cuts. As unpalatable as they sometimes appear though making policies for more “fairness” (non doms status / vat on schools etc) should only become law if they actually help society. Eg. Tax at 45% is well proven to raise less revenue for the state than 40% as a top rate. Non doms - however irritating and unfair are better in an economy than moving elsewhere in the world. Therefore however tempting to follow one’s heart, decisions need to have the best outcome for the population and not be driven by optics or ideology. It’s people’s well being and opportunities that matter - not politics.

I taught in state schools for years. We all knew the admissions process.

Theres no ‘creaming off’ It goes by the admissions criteria.

Id love to know how those private school kids are getting in if they were showed round on the last few weeks. They’ll be no space at all in a heavily oversubscribed school.

University is effectively taxed already because of the way in which the student loans system functions - only the highest earners will ever actually pay off the full loan. So adding VAT to the fees wouldn't actually impact on the majority of students anyway.

Of course, it's true that rich parents can choose to pay the fees upfront so that their dc don't have to repay the loans, but the extent to which this is actually financially beneficial really depends on what the dc go on to do after uni.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Actually, I think some posters are ignoring it...

People who can afford private school fees can afford to pay more tax instead, rather than buying success for their little smashers.“

I could have spent about £100k less on a house that would be just as nice but I decided to stretch to get a house round the corner from the most in demand state primary in the city.

The alternative was buy a cheaper house and send our son to an independent school.

Just because I opted for the expensive house/ state school option doesn't mean I'm any less guilty of buying education privilege for my child.

I reckon a lot of the people having a go at op are probably in a similar situation to me but just lack the honesty or self awareness to acknowledge it.

The alternative was buy a cheaper house and send our son to an independent school.

One alternative. You could still have bought the cheaper house and used a state school.

You may be right. Personally, I don't think there is any huge moral difference between parents who pay for private school fees and parents who buy their way into the catchments of the best state schools. My concern is always for the kids whose parents can't or won't support their education in any way.

No, I wouldn't send him to a poorly performing school. I went to a failing secondary in one of the most deprived areas of London and it was shit.

After spending science lesson watching kids superglue their eyelids together, see someone attach fireworks to a kitten and set them alight and watch refugee kids get the shit beaten out of them at break time, I wasn't too keen on the idea of my kid experiencing similar.

What was your school like @SabrinaThwaite

So what are your ideas for generating this economic growth?

My concern is always for the kids whose parents can't or won't support their education in any way.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Well I was very much one of those kids - raised on benefits in a deprived area, homeless at age 17 and I worked very hard to do well.

I don't begrudge a penny of tax I pay but I also call bullshit on a lot of the posters on this thread who are criticising op and others for prioritising education.

I'm fairly ambivalent about this tax but I don't for a second think it will really do anything to improve equality.

Personally, I don't think there is any huge moral difference between parents who pay for private school fees and parents who buy their way into the catchments of the best state schools.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

What is the morally correct way of buying a house in the catchment of an outstanding school? I'm genuinely baffled by this.

My secondary? Was pretty rubbish in a grotty town, lots of kids who didn’t give a shit because they were going to join their parents at the local factory at 16, was eventually burnt down by a disgruntled ex pupil.

But, like I said, you had a choice to spend £100k on a house or on private school, or to do neither of those things. Most people don’t have that option.