Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

On a practical level, I think you should move your DS for Sixth Form to state too. So he also gets some extra savings for uni or at least ask him what he wants to do.

Ask most 20 somethings, they will tell you they had a lovely time at private school but it was a waste of money and they would rather have cash. So I think you need to consider how you are going to treat them the same. It is not your DS fault that a Government penalty came in nor is it your DDs.

The Junior Isa and junior pensions have been around for a few years now and are a fantastic way for DCs to become involved in savings and investment and financial planning from an early age. They can then also choose if they want to take loan at uni or use savings instead. They should also carefully consider the cost of rent in various uni locations. These last 2 years in London we are seeing a lot of DCs trying to do apprenticeships or staying local for uni in London to save cash so they can get a job as soon as possible and save for housing. The number one headache for youngsters these days is not education (a lot can be accessed online, even if you are in a failing school), it’s housing near enough to good employment.

I haven't RTFT yet, just got to this and I totally agree with you. I went to a private school. Many of the children I went to school with had an attitude/belief that they were better than children at state schools, it was incredibly snobby. Private Vs state schools obviously won't be the only thing driving divides in society but I certainly agree that they contribute.

“@Solent123
There are over 1000 kids applying every year for our local Grammar school, for about 150 places, its probably the state school with the highest results in the country - but none of the local state primary schools encourage their children to apply or prepare them.

I'd like to understand why that it is”

In our state primary that is outstanding they do a ton of Maths and English and the higher ability kids are ready for many aspects of the 11 plus by September (English they tend to be ready, Maths there are a few concepts you have to cover). Some grammars test verbal and non verbal reasoning.
We have Chinese, Russian, Hong Kong and Indian parents in our state primary that manages to buy the books online and prep their DCs without tutors, often with English as a second language? So why can British born parents not purchase a few books on amazon and if they cannot afford it, why not ask some parents in older years? I will be passing our books to other families when we are done, just like I pass all school uniform on to our donation box and I put food bank stuff into the school office every week.

I read it and still believe fees should have VAT.

Your daughter is taking a state school place that she is entitled to. She didn't take it from anyone more deserving. Assuming you're involved in her education in more ways than just throwing money at it, parents like you can help a state school improve standards. A school being Outstanding doesn’t mean that day to day it doesn’t have room to improve. Many Outstanding schools are just good at ticking boxes for Ofsted rather than being noticeably better than Good schools in things that matter day to day. Just like many private schools look good on paper but don’t do much better than state.

I'm very sorry that you've decided to create such a divide between your children though. Either because your daughter feels you've sidelined her education needlessly compared to her brother, or because your son resents that you spent the money on private school fees instead of giving him the same cash his sister will get to help with a house, university etc.

I actually think this makes it a good idea.

The birth rate is falling so class sizes are also falling. Kids from private schools mean state schools won't be closing.

It's not as if it's an original position - people have been putting their sons through private education whilst sending their daughters to State since girls have been allowed to access it.

The justification varies over time from 'No point paying when she's just going to get married' to 'She'll do fine in State but my Son won't' via 'There's an excellent girls'/State school but there isn't anything suitable for my Son/the Sporting Facilities just aren't up to muster'. Now it'll be 'Ah, I would have done, but VAT'.

Yeah, probably best to give the extra winter holiday a miss for now and save up for the future therapist bills, especially for ds who has got a really raw deal!

Thanks for your comments everyone - i think a lot of comments missed my point. I’m not looking for sympathy I was pointing out that we’ve totally got a great result from this policy! We’ve found an excellent school (which we wouldn’t have even looked at before) and we’ve saved lots of money to spend, invest for our children and have fun with (extra winter hol). The Govt will spend more on my DD each year (£7k? per year to teach in state system) when that could have been spent on others plus some child who may have got into this great school my DD will be going to will instead have to go some where less good as a consequence. I’m super pleased and it works out amazing for us - but it doesn’t really help society does it? Now multiply this scenario many times up and down the country.

regarding DD getting most of the school fees savings invested into a fund for her I have definitely considered the points made many times that it is unfair on DS so we will split the savings 50/50 - thank you for helping me with that one.

It’s the arrogance of these parents. The assertion. that spending their money on private education for their child in some way benefits children of the less well off. It does no such thing.

I know.

For me, it is the earnest protestations that, of course these people aren't worried about the impact of taxing private school fees on themselves, they are only thinking about how it is going to impact the poor in our society. Such selflessness....

Secondary school should not allocate entry places based on an 11+ exam taken by children that cram by their parents, as this approach is unnatural, unjustified, ineffective, and wasteful of educational resources. Many many parents just don't participate this as principal.

This debate really reminds me of the Brexit debate. In the end it all came down to slogans on buses, ‘making Britain great again’ and sticking it to the establishment.
It was all emotive crap then, just as it is now.

I would agree with the VAT if it was the best way to go to rectify state education. If the money raised was enough and if it fixed the obvious issues. But I just can’t see it.

Pupil behaviour, teacher retention and lack of parental engagement in education won’t be fixed by £1.6 billion (if it gets anywhere close to that). The teacher who works in a failing school hit the nail on the head up thread. The great state schools will get better as affluent parents moved in to catchment and the failing schools will continue to fail.

Haha! Yes, exactly this @MrsBennetsPoorNerves
it’ll be so much better for the country if I get to keep more of my tremendous wealth while I buy privilege for my child.

The government have revoked the charity status of private schools because they are not charities the schools are a business and so they have passed the vat to the customers as businesses do. I do think it’s vastly unfair that the allocation per child the council pays per child in state school isn’t allocated to all children to put towards there education wherever that is used like they do with nurseries and preschools. We all pay tax, Even a small amount towards fees would be beneficial.

If that’s such an amazing option, why didn’t you just do that in the first place with both of your children? I call false jolly bullshit

please don’t tell me also that your solution is now to give your son £50k on top of his private education?!

I think what is saddest from the OPs postings is that she said they would never have considered state schools before and what luck they have discovered a wonderful state school on their doorstep!

In cases like these, the decision for private school was based on snobbery and status alone - to not even investigate what might be the best school for your child in your own vicinity is madness.

I had the same with a friend who blindly followed the private school route who was astounded when I told her my child was taking GCSE Latin, classical civilisation and astronomy at their state school. She didn’t believe it could happen!

Granted, not all state schools are as good as ours and totally granted that there is a lack of state SEN provision that is only supported by small private school classes. (These are the people I feel sympathy for with the VAT change) But I actually think taking the blinkers off parents who are starting their secondary journey to see that private does not always equal best is a really good thing. Choices will be made based on a much more measured selection process.

Parents who financially support their adult children through university, covering living expenses and rent, and housing deposit could be also seen as purchasing privileges for their children. Maybe should also pay a form of 'privilege tax' akin to private school VAT?

For goodness’ sake! Please get your facts straight before commenting. The government has not revoked charitable status. Around half of private schools are charities, not businesses and they are not permitted to make a profit. I agree with your idea though - it works well in other countries.

“Secondary school should not allocate entry places based on an 11+ exam taken by children that cram by their parents, as this approach is unnatural, unjustified, ineffective, and wasteful of educational resources. Many many parents just don't participate this as principal”

More fool them. I have watched some of these DCs grow up now via our church and go into the very top jobs in London. It’s all down to sheer hard work and push from the parents from an early age.
If you want productivity, that’s what it takes.

I've read your post and can confirm that I still agree with the VAT on school fees.

Isn't it the case that in actuality your son could have attended the same excellent state school that your daughter will now attend, and in fact you have wasted 100k on privately educating him when a school you didn't even look at because of your own prejudices could have been available for free? And that Labour's potential VAT policy has therefore done you a massive favour?

I went to private school. Actually boarding. Because I work in schools and visit many of them as my job, I know they are not generally the hell holes of rioting and anarchy that my parents feared. I have also seen some appalling teaching in indies; actually far worse than I have seen in any state.

No it isn’t.

We’ve had 4 through secondary. Some reach their peak later. None of them excelled themselves at school. They went to university and through MA’s got enviable jobs.

But secondary they did the minimum.

Of course it helps society. Anything that reduces the proportion of children in private schools, which entrench and perpetuate privilege, helps society in the longer term to become fairer and more egalitarian.

So you can be smug about that as well!

“Parents who financially support their adult children through university, covering living expenses and rent, and housing deposit could be also seen as purchasing privileges for their children. Maybe should also pay a form of 'privilege tax' akin to private school VAT?”

@OvertutoredMum - most of these people have already paid 45 per cent tax. Their DC can walk into other countries and do jobs there and keep more of theit money. Why would they stay here?
My cleverest DC is studying at ETH in Zurich and will then be off to MIT. And he is state schooled. He wants to explore the world. I am not going to hold him back. Plus ETH for him is pretty much free!! Other countries will take our brightest and best and that is where it is heading.

Because you have opted out of the system? You could have had that money spent on your child by the LA, but instead you chose to get much more spent on them by going private.

How would it be even slightly fairer that Jonny next door at the local state primary school gets 4.5 k to his school to educate him, whereas your Barry goes to private and gets your 25k AND the state's 4.5k? Are you not satisfied that he already gets 5 times as much spent on him?