If your child won a place at a competitive secondary….

[LeopardPJS]

… was it obvious from the start of primary school that they were academically gifted?
I’m just curious because in year two, my daughter is sort of middle of the pack/ not great on reading / definitely not one of the top kids in her class (though she is lovely and creative and we wouldn’t have her any other way obviously!)
She is an enthusiastic learner who loves school, and clearly takes a lot of the learning in, but is only ‘at expectation’ for most subjects and is ‘at the lower end of expectation’ for reading (though not actually ‘behind’ according to the teacher just lacking a bit of fluency and confidence)
I think this all probably means she isn’t going to be super academic, but my mum thinks it’s too early to tell and academic talents can make a later showing.
Who is right?!

@LeopardPJS

DH commutes from Oxford Parkway (Kidlington): 45 minutes to Marylebone. Is this too far?

@TheOutlaws sadly yes as it’s another 35 mins from Marylebone to his office so in total would be at least 2.5 hours a day commuting. He works 7am- 6pm five days a week in the office and can’t work remotely, so I think doing that commute on top would probably drive the poor man into an (even earlier) grave. Also he wouldn’t see the kids in the week. We talked about it, as we know how fab the schools are where you are and how lovely it is (have family there) but we just couldn’t make it work unfortunately.

Round near us I'd say there are two types of kids who get into the selective grammars. The above average but not exceptional who get lots of tutoring to pass the tests well. And the academically gifted who can pass the test without so much support. I think if your DD is middle of the pack, she could probably pass the tests with lots of coaching and tutoring. Be aware it can take over your life for the year before the exams (by the time ours had done a couple of out of school activities and then tutoring and practicing the tests, there wasn't a lot of time for just relaxing downtime after school). And one of our friends did all of this and then their son didn't get a place. He was heartbroken and it's been really difficult for them. They ended up paying for a private school but not everyone can do that.

I would say that you need to get the balance of intervention right. With mine I gave extra support where they needed it, but I didn’t make their work my responsibility. For example, after about the age of 6 it wasn’t my job to remind them about spelling tests. I think this is important as you have to give them space to develop their own motivation, which imo is as important as natural intelligence. A child who is motivated to learn can work for 11+. If your child is not motivated you’ll be fighting each other all the time.

I'm really enjoying this post OP. You sound very level headed and I have an August born son in year 2. I have all the same questions and concerns that you do. It's really great to hear the experiences of others. I had very pushy parents - they wanted the best for me academically but didn't encourage me with other things so I am very much encouraging my son with whatever he is interested in and trying not to push too much with weekly spelling tests.

It's good to hear that kids just flourish at their own pace and hear all the examples.

I believe some (maybe not all?) 11+ type scores are age standardized, to level the playing field for the years range of birth dates.

DD always seemed bright to me but didn't do very well at primary school, she is summer born and was late to read and write. She improved slowly and by Y6 was almost in the middle of the year. She is in Y13 now, predicted 3 x A* and an A at A level and waiting to hear whether she has an interview for Oxford. It wasn't until Y9-10 that her school performance reflected her academic ability.

Gahh @Hughs I suspect my daughter might be a bit like yours! Great that she is doing so well now.

@ErrolTheDragon thats fascinating, does anyone know if that’s true of london state selectives or indies? Would be great for DD if so!

@snazzychair glad to hear I’m not the only person worried about these things as early as year two 🙈 my parents sound similar to yours. I also try to be relaxed about spelling tests etc but it’s a fine balance if you have an Augusts born kid who isn’t naturally acing everything as I feel you also don’t want them to lose heart by getting 1/10 every week so a bit of practice is probably useful? We were equally relaxed on her reading the boring school reading books they sent home if she didn’t want to initially, just figured if we kept reading things she liked at home to her it would fall into place, but then at the end of last year when she started coming home saying ‘I’m not good at reading, x y and z are reading chapter books and they can read better than me’ and we realised we needed to give her more support, or she would lose her confidence. It’s so hard to get the balance right! But totally agree with you re: supporting them in what they are really passionate about and we try to do same

"does anyone know if that’s true of london state selectives or indies?"

Age standardisation is true for state selective at 11+, and academic selective private schools too though more subjective.

I feel you also don’t want them to lose heart by getting 1/10 every week

This is really key - primary school is so reading / writing focused that DD actually began to think she was stupid when she wasn't. Keep her confidence high!

Thanks @PreplexJ , I’ve just seen that Latymer do seem to use age standardisation, not sure about Mary Mags. Can I ask what you mean by age standardisation being more subjective in independent school testing?

Independent schools online or MC test does apply age standardisation, for open written format it is harder to do so. And there is interview round so the age thing is subjective.

I would say the procedure will have some change in the future since a lot on kids got tutoring at early age that distorted the effectiveness of age standardisation.

And I don't think this is something specific to be worried about at year 2 at all..

Ours was always in the top set / top 25%, but all children develop at different times.

DD moved to selective Juniors at yr3/age 7 as a "July baby". She wasn't speedy to "get" reading and writing in reception but a chance remark from her yr1 teacher in the summer term made us re-assess.

DD's school used age standardised tests.

NB we aren't in London, so entrance exams are probably a lot more relaxed.

DD is at a super selective grammar.

Yes, it was evident from the start of primary. Her foundation teacher said at our first parents evening that she was very able and would have a good academic career. She was always exceeding expectations/greater depth, top table etc etc throughout primary.

Kids develop at different rates. I was average for primary but academically excelled later on, some of ds1’s friends have been obviously very academic from the start of school and others who seemed very bright initially have settled a bit and are now bright but not exceptional.
remember mumsnet has an unexpectedly large number of posts from those with high achieving offspring…by definition the majority of the population are somewhere around ‘average’ and there is nothing wrong with that!

@LeopardPJS yes agree. We still encourage him to do his spellings and we read every day. He does enjoy reading and being read to so will continue with that.

I do want to try other methods to teach him though so have looked at the Doodle Math and Timestable rockstar that were mentioned earlier in previous posts. I try not using a tablet too much but I think these apps would help rather than sitting and writing - which is is very reluctant to do. Makes me think he would never have the concentration span to study for 11+ but he is still young.

@snazzychair great that he enjoys reading - DD is up and down with wanting to do it! She loves Numbots though, have you tried that? I do think it makes a difference to maths. Can’t be too bad for their brains as the school pay for it and give them individual logins!

Both my DDs went/go to state Grammars. We didn't really notice anything with either of them in terms of academics. They were both strong readers and good at maths but that's about it. We tutored for both of them and they comfortably got into the schools they wanted to go to and weren't stressed over the 11+ at all.

But we didn't have "wow DD is so clever" moment with either of them - we put them in for the 11+ mostly because the local options are awful and private wouldn't have been possible without lots of adjustments. And also a "hey lets see what happens."

Such an interesting thread. You sound very sensible and clear sighted OP - your DD is lucky to have a parent who ‘gets’ her as much as you clearly do, and who has thought all eventualities through so thoroughly.

We’re in a very similar boat, albeit coming at things from a slightly different angle. DD is in Year 1, clearly bright, top table in her class (probably top 1/2 within that), exceeding expectations for everything, fluent reader etc. She has been described as ‘exceptional’ by the teaching staff at her school.

However… given that she’s only just turned 6 I’m trying to determine how much of this is genuine ability (DP and I are both pretty academic) and how much is DD’s fortunate circumstances - I’m an ex-teacher, have very much been around for her during the preschool years, and due to my own professional knowledge and experience DD was prepped extremely well for school. She also seems to be in quite a challenging/low ability class, so I’m not sure whether it’s just a case of her being a big fish in a very small pond at the moment.

We’re also in North London (albeit in a different borough from you) and we also have Latymer as pretty much the only secondary option that appeals to us. Both DP and I went to Latymer and loved it, and I want a similarly positive secondary experience for DD. Like you, we want to find somewhere that suits her but don’t really want to hothouse, and if Russell Group/Oxbridge isn’t the right path for her then that’s absolutely fine.

If Latymer isn’t looking to be an option then we are also potentially looking to move, as the comps where we are just don’t float my boat (our most likely option is a super strict academy which, for me, isn’t ticking the happiness/well-being boxes, plus none are particularly strong on arts/music, which are important to us). While on paper it seems utterly ridiculous to base a decision on relocating on the academic abilities or otherwise of a 6 year old, I know from having watched friends do it that the whole tortuous moving process means you need to set the ball rolling earlier rather than later.

I will say, having taught Year 1 for several years, that the children who I identified as being the highest achievers generally did end up being the ones who ultimately won places at selective schools. Notably my two top table ‘Latymer material’ children from one particular class both ended up there (as did the precocious one who, when I asked if anyone had any questions about what to expect in Year 1, said ‘Yes, when do we start learning single sciences?)!

Yes @TempsPerdu i would agree that the moving decision needs to ideally be made earlier than later especially if you have or are likely to have other children. We have two preschoolers as well as our DD, one starting at her school in September so in a way we have already left it too late. On the other hand, if you move now into the catchment of a comp you like, what’s to say that a) the comp won’t go massively downhill over the next four years or b) the comp will get massively better and the catchment will halve meaning your home is no longer in it?! Both things by no means unheard of in London!
Then again, if we leave it too late to move in an attempt to mitigate those factors, we will be looking for two or even three new primary places … hugely disruptive and upsetting for our kids plus we love their primary so it seems madness to move them. Or, we commute across London every day back to the old primary for several years? Which would be an utter logistical nightmare and source of insane daily stress. Basically- there is no good option!
Then there’s the cost of moving - stamp duty plus the almost inevitable cost of doing work to make a new house feel like a home you want to live in - by the time you’ve done all that is it really cheaper than private?! Depends on house prices where you live and how many kids you have - Maybe it might be a bit cheaper for me to move, as I have three - but not by much!
A while ago I said to my DH would you rather move, or stay put and pay private fees. He made a ‘neither’ face but said probably narrowly the latter. I probably tend to agree. Even though all I really want is for them to be at a good, supportive local comp. It’s so frustrating!

3 x private school fees sounds terrifying. I would say primaries are generally good across London, so though you may feel attached to your primary, I wouldn't necessarily see that as a deal breaker to moving.

@TempsPerdu with a Y9 at Latymer, I haven't found it at all hothousy. In fact just the opposite. She really doesn't have that much homework - 2-3 hours a week at most, and the teachers are very encouraging. It's a really lovely school if you can get in!

One thing to note is Latymer is a boy heavy school, about 2/3 boys and 1/3 girls in some year groups. Not sure if make any difference for some.

@Stokey i know, 3 x school fees it’s an utterly horrifying thought, especially as someone who really isn’t all that enthusiastic about the idea of private school in the first place 🤣 I actually mapped it out last night, how much we would be paying in fees every year for 14 years until our mid fifties (!!) and it was an incredibly sobering process! We are lucky that (I think) we could just manage it, but it would have a huge impact on our lifestyle and also on the amount we could realistically save for retirement, which does worry me a lot. And then what about helping them through uni, etc?!
There must be a better way - and I do take your point about moving- I think you’re probably right about there being good primaries all over but I guess we’d have to be realistic about the chances of all three kids simultaneously being given in-year places at a great / popular London primary if we moved - maybe we’d be lucky, but I think more likely we’d be looking at them going to different schools at least for a while and all the upheaval and logistics that involves.
Neither sounds like a great option to me. Third option is saying where we are, trying for these incredibly competitive schools, but ultimately making our peace with the idea that she might have to go to the local comp we’re not keen on.
Most parents in our position seem to end up, after much deliberation, doing this third option, because they like where they live, and because it’s not the worst school by any means, just a bit meh. And most of their kids end up at the comp and to be fair a lot of them seem happy-ish with it. It’s just I also know of a number of cases where the kids really haven’t been, and those cases do worry me. As does the fact that despite being a massive comp, they don’t even stream, which I’ve heard from so many parents is bit of a disaster for the teaching of the brighter/ keener kids.
In summary, if my DD could suddenly discover her academic mojo at KS2 as so many of the brilliant children on this thread have done, that would be INCREDIBLY convenient…..!!!!!!!! 😂

but I guess we’d have to be realistic about the chances of all three kids simultaneously being given in-year places at a great / popular London primary if we moved - maybe we’d be lucky, but I think more likely we’d be looking at them going to different schools at least for a while and all the upheaval and logistics that involves.

London schools are suffering from falling rolls so I wouldn’t discount the idea of moving them. It’s not hit secondaries yet but when it does I think it will create even more division (headcount impacts funding) so it’s something to be mindful of.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/london-schools-face-crisis-pupil-numbers-plummet-b1084718.html#comments-area