If your child won a place at a competitive secondary….

[LeopardPJS]

… was it obvious from the start of primary school that they were academically gifted?
I’m just curious because in year two, my daughter is sort of middle of the pack/ not great on reading / definitely not one of the top kids in her class (though she is lovely and creative and we wouldn’t have her any other way obviously!)
She is an enthusiastic learner who loves school, and clearly takes a lot of the learning in, but is only ‘at expectation’ for most subjects and is ‘at the lower end of expectation’ for reading (though not actually ‘behind’ according to the teacher just lacking a bit of fluency and confidence)
I think this all probably means she isn’t going to be super academic, but my mum thinks it’s too early to tell and academic talents can make a later showing.
Who is right?!

Also it does really depend if you mean grammar or private selective - average private schools get similar % 9-7 at GCSE as grammar, but super selective private will get far higher. Grammar kids would not necessarily pass super selective private and the tests can be very different to the 11/12/13+.

Is she young in her year?
My DS is August born and it took him up until Y4 to move into "expected". He was above expected by Y6 but did not sit the grammar test due to us feeling that it was not right for him (and a long bus journey).
He is now clearly capable of grammar as he is doing really well in his state comp.
He is not a genius though and would not thrive in a super selective environment.
Also, you have to work hard, your DD might really throw herself into her work as she gets older and improve that way.
So I wouldn't necessarily think she has shown you all she is capable of at this stage.

So helpful to hear everyone’s experiences - makes you realise how different everyone is!
For context we are in London so not a grammar area but more of a mixed bag: there are some very selective grammar schools which you can try for from where we live- like Latymer in Edmonton, for example.
Then there are more local schools which are partially selective (like Mary mags) and which partially use other criteria - but the academically selective places are also v competitively fought over
Then there are (the expensive option of) private schools, like City of London school for girls, Forest school in Snaresbrook and others. These are also academically selective, although because you also have to pay the fees I don’t have a sense that the places are quite so fiercely fought over as the grammars like Latymer.
It’s early to be thinking about all this obviously - but the issue for us (and many who live where we do) is that if she is unlikely to be suited to a selective school/ unlikely to be successful in any of these routes into selective schools, then we would possibly be better off thinking early about moving to an area where we are likely to get a place at a very good local comprehensive school (like Camden school for girls, parliament hill, fortismere etc).
I certainly don’t want to hothouse her or tutor her up to the eyeballs for a place at a school she won’t be happy at - not at all. I’m just trying to work out what our best options are likely to be, given the sort of child we have - or whether it’s just too early to tell that.
DD’s teachers have never had a concern about her, they are full of praise for her learning and behaviour and say she is where she needs to be, she is just not all that brilliant on reading, and is not currently ‘exceeding expectation’
I do wonder if as @Pinkpinkplonk , being a very quiet and well-behaved girl is not doing her any favours in her state primary especially as her year is boy-heavy and the boys are very boisterous and there have been some problems with behaviour (I hear from the boy mums)
DD is very bright and enthusiastic about school, remembers things she is taught in amazing depth and the complexity of her thinking when she talks is impressive but unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be translating into academic work - she is quite slow on reading although her teacher thinks she is just lacking confidence / being a perfectionist and not wanting to get things wrong.
Then again some kids in her class are independently reading through the Harry Potter books etc … it’s hard not to compare!

My son is a summer baby and certainly didn't shine at primary school. We sent him to a lovely, nurturing secondary school where he has excelled. He did extremely well at GCSEs, has been made a scholar and senior prefect and is predicted to do well at A levels.
I just think he needed time to mature to be honest.

And yes @SomersetBrie and @follygirl she is august born - end of august in fact, I think she is actually one of the youngest in her year. How interesting to hear your experience of this. She is also physically smaller than most in her class and I do sometimes think blimey she is a whole year behind these kids, it’s tough for her! I’m cheered to hear that your DC was catching up and doing so well by year four. Perhaps she just needs more time, although unfortunately she’s already got it into her head she is ‘not one of the clever ones’, poor kid!

I live in a grammar school area- every child in my daughters prep class bar one got a grammar place. Pretty much all have CAT scores 115 plus and average PTE/ PTM of about the same.
Those scores will give you a good indicator

Quite a lot of posters on this thread clearly haven’t come across selective secondaries that are neither grammars nor private. There are quite a few of them across the country. Near me is the SW Herts consortium which is a set of state secondaries who admit to some of their places on various criteria and pass points via tests taken in year 6 (their (dreadful) website might be interesting: https://www.swhertsschools.org.uk/).

One of the reasons the 11+ system was so controversial when it was universal was how many children develop academically when in their teens. There are many examples of people failing the 11+ who then found themselves frustrated in schools that weren’t focused on supporting them to achieve more and ended up at university via longer and more difficult routes. That is in addition of course to the issue of the difference that additional tutoring made to those on the cusp of passing - the old 11+ was in general more passable without any additional help that it is now but obviously extra help could be helpful.

My daughter was put into an enhanced Maths grouo to stretch her within the first half term at reception. She’d only h turned 4 in the summer, I had no idea she was talented at Maths! She was quiet and generally overlooked at (comprehensive) secondary, never won a prize for example until an excellent set of gcse results. She currently on track for a first in a chemistry related subject.

so condolence and outgoingness can also contribute to how much they are ‘noticed’. Also hard work plays a part regardless of how gifted the child is. And some children develop much later.

and some parents use intensive tutoring, which helps but does not replace natural gifts esp in maths and science at the higher levels.

At start of the primary? I don't think one can easy to tell the kids themself in term of academic ability because they tend develop at different time and age.

But one can certainly tell the parent involvement level, like OP who already looking at selective secondary options and ways and chances to approach those.

FWIW I knew kids went to Latymer and City girls. I don't think they showed distinctive academic ability from other kids at year 2. But their family definitely are the one who were invested early.

Going to a academic competive secondary in London is not just about academic ability but also more about time/effort spend on prep intitated by the parents. Also, a lot of kids who didn't opt for 11+ can outperformed the kids from selective secondary schools academically in the later stage.

First one yes absolutely.
Second one definitely not.
Third one yes (he's year 5 but will definitely get a place)
Fourth one maybe (he's year 4 we will see)

It’s also worth thinking about your child’s class average - is it normal average?! Eg in dc1’s class, 14 of the 31 kids not only passed the 11+, they passed it at a grade high enough to get in to one of the super selective schools. But across the county, for that year group, only 7% of children passed the 11+ at a super selective score. “Average” for the class was not the same as average for the wider county. (This was a state primary- just an unusually bright class, the same school didn’t get the same results the year before or after!)

(I think dc1’s year was also unusual in the super selective scores being around top 7%, boom birth year so the offer scores didn’t go very low compared to other years)

Worth noting that, while Latymer is not a superselective, it is a coed London grammar, the competitiveness to get in is easier than some London superselective but much harder than those Kent superselective (Judd, Dartford Grammar, Tonbridge). Similar level as CLSG.

and some parents use intensive tutoring, which helps but does not replace natural gifts esp in maths and science at the higher levels

In fairness, in my experience (as someone very lazy to whom academic success has always come easy) hard work always trumps natural talent if the naturally talented don't work hard. 🤓

I agree with the above. My DC was always on the upper side of average, not remarkable. If there had been an 11+ around I don’t think would have passed it. Now in final year of school (Scotland), all As for National 5, all A at Higher and forecast 3 A for Advanced Higher despite dropping their strongest subjects. Very organised and a hard worker so when work ethic came into play then they improved

Yes I think you'll find that the kids who are doing well are also doing extra work in the evening...not huge amounts but say half an hour a day of English and Maths. I wish I had done this with my DD in primary...no parent will admit to it, but I found out via the kids themselves!! Some who went private in year 8 were coached for 2 hours every day of the summer holidays. In my experience, state primaries don't push at all, which is a shame as often children have a real thirst for knowledge and certainly as a child I loathed too much arts and crafts and loved a page of sums or whatever. It was so satisfying. People often say that in Europe kids don't start school until 6 etc. However at 6 most of them can read and write and by 10 are more or less fluent in English! I think our state primary education really lets children down...they don't have that essential grounding that a private school would give them

meant to say aged 8 year 4-5

Children do develop at different rates, but vocabulary at 5 is known to be a strong predictor of academic success later on.

No competitive secondary (though yes for sixth form. I always knew she was bright but she didn't perform exceptionally well like some kids do at primary. She didn't get in to the top sets until GCSEs and did well at those but not top top. She did get three A stars at A level plus A star EPQ, well above the boundaries this past cycle but she worked hard.

I remember asking my DS' year 4 teacher at his first primary school, just before we we were due to move away and were looking at an area that happened to have a lot of grammar schools, whether she thought he had grammar school potential. He was probably bit above average at the time but youngest in the year so doing pretty well for his age. She said there is no way of knowing, as they change a lot in the next few years. So we didn't risk it, not wanting to have to get a tutor. Anyway we didn't move to that area but DS became a high achiever at the crap primary we did move him to and started year 7 in top set in every subject and I'm sure he could have got got in to a grammar school. So there was a massive change between the ages of about 8 and 11. Similar with my other DC but not quite so pronounced.

@LeopardPJS for us, we were not considering private school in Year 2 and only made the choice to try end of year 5. Early on, I knew my dd was naturally bright. She always had a really good memory and just seemed really with it. We spent her early years though focusing on playing outside in the park, sport and art. Homework was an afterthought. She was average Year 2, but then slowly started moving to above average in areas. When it came to applying for 11+ I still had no idea if she was super academic or not. Heck, I still do not really know. She is still very much focused on sports and clubs. She does Sport 6 days a week. I hardly see her do homework, although she does go to school early and says she does it before her sport/clubs. She is now year 7 and going to a very academic school and really enjoying it.

Yes, I think this. You can be naturally talented, but if you do not learn to also work hard others will eventually surpass you or do better. Its the same for sports too. Some dc are just naturally talented in sports, but they would not progress if they do not train. If someone less talented trains a few times a week, they will quickly become better.

This is not always the case, we did the bare minimum for school work, never did the challenges etc. Instead spent a lot of time in the park, sports etc and my dc were still doing well in class. I never put effort into their school work until we realized we would do the 11+. Dd was end of year 5 for this. So we started to prep and she got a tutor. We did not do crazy amounts and she did well. But during this process when speaking to others, I found out there were a lot of parents who had tutors for their dc just to stay ahead...they were not doing 11+ So yes, you can find both dc who do extra work and are pushed/tutored so they can get GDS. But you can also find dc with natural ability getting GDS.

Both of mine were average or behind in some subjects in the early years of primary. One because they were August-born and one was not school-shaped. We were a bit naïve and didn’t realise you have to step in and help because school won’t. But both gradually improved and were near the top of the class by year 6. I do know a couple of kids who were determinedly average until year 8 or 9 but worked very hard at GCSE and came out with amazing results.

Yes, he was young for the year but ahead of every other child (100+ children, the teacher told me when I asked if grouping across classes was an option) in maths, and in the top few in the class for reading. Writing was very average. He got into a no-catchment grammar without tutoring but had mixed results at GCSE (grades 4 through to 9).