If your child won a place at a competitive secondary….

[LeopardPJS]

… was it obvious from the start of primary school that they were academically gifted?
I’m just curious because in year two, my daughter is sort of middle of the pack/ not great on reading / definitely not one of the top kids in her class (though she is lovely and creative and we wouldn’t have her any other way obviously!)
She is an enthusiastic learner who loves school, and clearly takes a lot of the learning in, but is only ‘at expectation’ for most subjects and is ‘at the lower end of expectation’ for reading (though not actually ‘behind’ according to the teacher just lacking a bit of fluency and confidence)
I think this all probably means she isn’t going to be super academic, but my mum thinks it’s too early to tell and academic talents can make a later showing.
Who is right?!

Are there other good magazines for younger children? Looking for one for a 4 year old, reading age probably 6.

My DS1 is really bright, not a genius or anything but "top of the class" material, and yes he did get a place at a selective state school (not a grammar school - a comprehensive that awards 10% of places based on performance in a test). It was clear from around age 3 I'd say.

@AvengedQuince
Anorak magazine? Although 4 is quite young. You might be better reading that sort of thing to them!!

Thanks, I read to him but he also likes to read alone (and it's nice when he's still and relatively quiet).

@LeopardPJS I think we probably live not too far from you (not Stokey any more but quite close).
DD1 was in the top 3 or 4 in her class for maths and English all through primary, and got into Latymer with minimal tutoring, about 4 months. One other from her class didn't make Latymer but got into another grammar outside of London - family moved- and 2 others got into Forest. One of those 2 was definitely middle of the class rather than top and her mum said she wouldn't bother trying for Latymer. So I disagree with what a PP said that the private Indies are harder to get into than the grammars - not the ones near us anyway!

DD2 is probably a stronger reader than her sister but was more middle of the class. She's wasn't as focussed and never had the natural maths ability. For example DD1 would sit and work through a Lego set from start to finish while DD2 would get bored and start making her own thing. She didn't get into Latymer but is doing well at local girls school.

I know a couple of people who just missed out on Latymer but got places at Mary Mag. Also if your child is musical, the music places need a lower score to get in, although I think there are only 20.

@AvengedQuince The Week Junior Science and Nature is really good, lots of fun facts and great pictures.

@Stokey thanks so much for taking the time to answer and for that amazing local info, it’s so helpful. And well done to both your DDs.
Definitely agree Latymer seems more competitive than the likes of forest from what I can tell and that it’s only really worth a shot if you’re near the top of the class. I have a feeling it would be too much to hope for for DD to get a place there (who also doesn’t have a musical bone in her body sadly!)
I’d be ecstatic with a place at Mary Mags although I know those too are fiercely fought over. Mary mags also closer, and has the sibling policy which means I would only have to go through this nightmare once!!
Forest looks dreamy…. But quite a schlep every day from our area, and paying multiple lots of those fees would not be my dream!
I’d love to message you privately about the girls school your DD2 is at, I wonder if it’s one we have looked at.
Thanks again for the input !

My DS was so poor in primary school that I was told it was a good job he was good at sport as he wasn't very academic in year 5.

Turned out he had undiagnosed SEN (autism and dyslexia) he school refused due to crippling anxiety for the whole of secondary school only picking up books in year 11. Entered 6 GCSEs as a private candidate and scraped the grades to get into state 6th form.

He has done SO well in 6th form that he got 3 A *'s in his year 12 mocks and has applied to Oxford (still waiting on that ) but has offers from 3 Russell Group universities already.

So I'd say relax.

When DS was in Reception, he was in the ‘top readers group’, who were all then the Narrators in the Christmas Show. I’ve got a picture of the 6 of them - 4 girls and 2 boys. They all graduated this year - 4 Oxbridge, 1 Durham, I Imperial, all with firsts. So that was a good predictor!

You also have to consider personality as much as intelligence. In theory, my DS ought to have been grammar school material. There was a general assumption he would be going to grammar amongst people I knew because he was known as the smart one by his peers. He failed the 11+ because of anxiety. When he sat CATS in secondary he scored 134 so it wasn’t an academic ability issue. Had it been a 13+ entry it might have been a different story, but at 10 he just wasn’t there.

Thankfully we are also London so he went to a good local comprehensive instead and we didn’t have everything riding on passing the 11+. I don’t really regret that we tried it as the tutoring we did was still helpful, but I wish we’d taken the decision not to do the exam at the end of it.

Thanks @itsfinallytime and it is great to hear that your DS has done so well.
However - you’ve misjudged the source of my anxiety - I don’t actually worry about the a-levels/ Universiry part. If I had to guess now, I’d say she will probably go to art school (like 2/3 of my family have) - it’s the area where she has always clearly excelled from a young age and I would be more than happy for her to do that when the time comes.
My anxiety is actually just that like most parents, I want her to have access to a happy experience at a nice secondary school where she is supported to achieve all she can, creatively and otherwise (and bloom/ peak/ find her stride academically later, on if that’s what she is likely to do, as your son did and @UnicornBrights son did also)
And my worry is that because of the way the system is in London, and because we’re out of catchment sadly for the many good comprehensives in north London, her chances of getting into to the secondary schools where I think she’d have the best chance of that support will ultimately, whether we like it or not, hang on her academic performance in some tests at age 10 (as she will be as august born when she sits any secondary school entrance tests)
So unfortunately for me, yes it does matter whether between now and year six she’s likely to progress enough academically to pass those tests or not. Because if it’s really unlikely she will do well enough in those tests if she is middle of the pack in year two - and as many people on this thread seem to feel that they sort of knew from reception/ year one that their child was one of the top performers etc - we’d probably be better off seriously thinking about moving into the catchment of a very good comp.
Which to be honest I hate the idea of, as I love where we live now, I love her primary school and the community around it. I’d much rather stay and hope for the best.
So essentially by starting the thread I wanted to get a clearer sense of how much her current performance was an accurate predictor of success at secondary school admissions time. I don’t worry about her in the long term at all because I’m not obsessed with Russel group/ Oxbridge or anything like that. I’m a big believer that are many ways to succeed in life, not all of which are academic, and at 18 she will have a vastly bigger range of choices (including ones where her artistic talent and creativity will count for much more than it does in the secondary admissions process!) and will I’m sure make the right ones for her.
I just want her to have a happy, calm and supportive secondary education. It shouldn’t be this complicated, but as we all know, it unfortunately is (especially in London!)

@LeopardPJS feel free to PM me about specifics.

Oh thank you @Stokey ! Will do

I can understand you wanting to know about moving @LeopardPJS. Thought I'd just share that it's also schools that change in that time. When my DS was in reception, the local schools were all thought of as awful places and everyone wanted to be out of borough. By the time he was in Y5 they had changed a lot and there was much more good local choice. And now the one that was amongst the most shunned is super popular and everyone's first choice.

That might feel like too much of a gamble for you though!

What sort of selective secondary school are you talking about?

Well said.

In that case apologies @LeopardPJS .

Just be careful not to hot house her so much that she doesn't enjoy primary school. They are only young once.

Hope it works out for your DD.

😂

For dd1 it was obvious very young, taught herself to read by 3. But by a levels her dsis had overtaken her academically despite her sister really struggling through primary as in 4 years behind in English at age 11

None of it matters.

I was an early reader and musically extremely talented. I didn’t enjoy secondary at all, despite it being geared towards my interests. My DM was pushy with me, less so with my brother, and he now earns four times my salary. He is neurotypical, though, whereas I have undiagnosed ND.

My DC are exceeding expectations, but DS1 is also ASD/ADHD. He needs downtime, and lots of it. He’ll go to the excellent local comp in September, where his needs will be met and he’ll hopefully find something he loves to do.

Life isn’t a competition.

@LeopardPJS Sorry just read your update! Is moving to an area with better comps an option? I’m in Oxfordshire and we have lots here (Oxford itself less so).

Thanks @UnicornBrights that is a really fair point - I think both options (staying and moving) feel a bit like a gamble honestly!

@CurlewKate so the main options where we are are sitting academic selection tests for Latymer or Mary mags (both state) and then there are various academically selective Indies, such as forest, channing and city of London school for girls, which she could try for.

August born son was hopeless in year 2. We all thought he was not at all academic and seemed to just grunt and play with blocks. Needed speech therapy. Not interested in school in fact nothing much but lego. Daughter from young age referred to as "freaky genius child" as speaking at 6 months. Fast forward both in super selectives and son just applied to Cambridge - couldn't be more shocked!

Paediatrician recommended I see the educational psychologist for daughter to check she was being stimulated enough and she was completely unconcerned about her, but wanted to know about son. Told me usually siblings within 5 IQ points of each other and I shouldn't assume he wasn't v bright too. Have to admit was very sceptical.

Turned out with son it started to show around age 8 but still struggled to sit through eleven plus - has done well in secondary school but has consistently outperformed teacher expectations.

@TheOutlaws moving to Oxfordshire sounds bloody lovely but sadly DH’s job is very tied to London and the hours are too long to make commuting possible

"Children who get top marks throughout, from primary through to university, are reckoned to be <2%. Some peak at a younger age than others - for example, research shows that there is no direct correlation between 11+ scores and GCSE grades (grammar schools have this information but obviously aren't over-keen to share it)."

You can see this if you look at non-selective private schools in grammar areas. There's a private school locally who takes pupils who fail 11+ and a lot with SEN/ high sports scholarship levels and gets very similar results to the grammar, better even than some. It's a good way to show how badly the state sector is failing, particularly those with SEN who can't afford to go private.