11+ at private schools same as entrance exam for grammar schools?

[maggie3kids]

Applying to primary schools with the intention of grammar secondary. Our main motivation for choosing an independent(private) primary school is that they do the 11+ exam. Apparently this is wrong because each grammar school has their own 11+ exam so whatever they do at primary doesn’t matter.

Can anybody shed some light on this please as it is going to impact us a lot more financially so I want to make sure private school will (help to) solidify entry into a grammar i.e. reduce need for tutoring and examination stress. Thank you!

What part of the U.K. are you based in as the entrance exams differ in difficulty? But yes a private prep school won't prepare your dc for a state grammar school.
Have you looked at the website
elevenplusexams.co.uk?

It can be very different and each school will set its own tests. I would try looking at sites like Atom Learning for insights into each school and the exam process.

Some preps may prepare for 11+ grammar more will prepare for local independent senior school exams. Check the leavers destinations for the prep school you are looking at and ask them what exam preparation they do and if some of their leavers do go onto the Grammar school you are interested in ask if they were tutored.

I live in a Grammar school area and there is a crammar type prep that prepares for the entrance exam, the other preps don't and any of their leavers that go to the Grammar school tend to have been tutored.

Private prep schools in Trafford very much do prep the children for the grammar 11 plus, (and then those that continue on to also do the private school exams a few months later continue to get exam prep support in our school).
certainly in our school, the majority of the parents are focused on the grammar schools, and in fact no one in my oldest year whose child passed for a grammar sent them to a private school instead.
from what you say it must vary from area to area?

11+ is independent of the primary school. Some Private schools do prepare them for the 11+ but that's outside of the curriculum and depends on the school. Personally if you have looked around the state primaries and like the facilities they offer I would look at that option. My child has just passed the exam and we started tutoring late (just before the summer. He does go to a good primary. I would use the money for tutoring and normal enjoyable after-school activities.

Tutoring and learning doesn't have to be stressful if you find the right tutor. They have some lovely ones around.

Do what's right for you and your child ultimately. I have know children that have been tutored for 3 years not pass. Some that have never been tutored pass. It may be worth seeing how things go for a couple of years with regards to your child's progress to see the best path for them. Hth

11+ grammar are typically more difficult because they have a higher number of applications because they are free.

QE (grammar) had 3,000 applicants vs St Pauls (private) which had 800.

Every area has different exams. Most do all or a mixture of verbal reasoning, non verbal reasoning, comprehension, SPAG, maths etc etc. It will depend on your area.
Most private schools who go all the way to 18 won't prep your child for the state schools' 11 plus as they would rather keep you there.
Whereabouts are you? Some areas admit about 30% to grammar school ,(eg Buckinghamshire, Kent) others admit on score with no catchment, so are very competitive.

Thank you so much all, Yes I should have specified! We are in London and I have a son and daughter so looking at all of them really St Michael’s, QE, Henrietta… we did a tour of a primary school today and it was a question I asked about leaver destination, I think that will be a key deciding factor now as opposed to state vs. Independent.

which tutors did you use? Is it better to start from year 3 so we ease into it rather than bombarding them in year6?

They sit the exam at the beginning of year 6. Starting at year 3 is far too early. Most start in earnest at the start of year 5, although the pushier parents will start in year 4.

For QE or HBS, you would see recent years a lot of parents start from year 4, not surprised some even year 3.

I think state won't tell you much info about leaver destinations, you will find max each school have 2-4 to these schools every year, and for the independent schools even less (even the top ones, and some get the offers but not going there in the end).

These number if want to compared need to put into prospective,

QE take 190 boys at 11+

St Paul take 36 boys at 11+ and 90 boys at 13+ (most from private prep schools)

My daughter attended a prep for a number of years and then was home schooled and is still currently being home schooled, she’s been preparing solidly since Year 4, with tutoring since Feb this year. She’s sat the St Michaels grammar exam and passed that one, and will also be sitting various other independent school exams too. I feel like prep school doesn’t cover enough of the curriculum in depth to prepare students for both grammar and independent schools, a lot of the work was done at home tbh, alongside tutoring. They say the exams are based on KS2 curriculum, however I would say otherwise.

@maggie3kids Leaver destinations from state primary aren’t usually available to other parents. You also don’t learn what’s required academically from Dc who have already left. State schools teach the national curriculum. Choosing a state primary with the expectation of a grammar place is wishful thinking in the extreme.

If you can afford it: go prep. Move at 13. There are options around London for boarding and they are much easier to get into. (Not all obviously).

I did manage to get leavers destinations for a couple of the local state primary’s - the lists showed they largely fed secondary state schools, not grammars or private secondary’s. Whereas the private school we opted for had a good proportion of leavers going to much-competed for grammar school places. Totally agree with @TizerorFizz!

St Michael’s, QE, Henrietta ... really not that hard! Normal, bright children from my DSs state primary got in to all of those without years of tutoring.

@Moominmammacat is that recently or many years ago?

It's not the same now as it was 5+ years ago. Now you do have to tutor (parent or other) extensively to get in either grammar or selective private.

Currently those grammars are really really competitive to get into and not for the faint hearted! So personally, unless you are really rich, I would save money at primary and do private at secondary school. Even if you pay up for prep, there is no guarantee your DC will be clever enough to get into those schools nor that you will want to push them hard enough to do so. It is another matter in eg. Kent or Bexley where there are plenty of grammar schools and a bright and motivated child can get in if living in catchment with a bit of preparation.

No, ten years ago so it may well have changed. But plenty still get in.

Plenty? I will surprised to hear in recent years a state primary schools with a typical 2 form entry will have more than 5 pupils get in both QE and HBS. Those who interested in the true can request a FOI request to these schools to ask for the transfer schools from for their year 7.

Plenty definitely do not get in! My daughter just went through this process for a grammar and your talking completing 80 questions in 50 minutes, these exams require proper prep to pass, and by this I mean tutoring. I agree with those stating private for senior as even those in my daughters prep were paying for extra tutoring anyway.

@Moominmammacat it's just not possible these days to get high enough marks in the 11+ to get into grammar school without tutoring.

The state primary curriculum doesn't cover the topics in the exam until Y6. The exam is done at the very start of Y6 so those who haven't been tutored won't have the knowledge regardless of how bright they are.

Most around here start tutoring in Y4. It's a very sad date of affairs. What was meant to be an opportunity for ALL bright children to get the education they deserved is now reserved for those who can afford to pay for tutors.

Even worse, those children who have been tutored and done the exam are then encouraged to 'relax and enjoy Y6' by their parents. As a parent who cannot afford to tutor their child, it was awful to see them surrounded by kids who have been tutored and were bored/burned out in Y6. Their 'I don't need to do anything now until Y7' attitude had a huge impact on the learning of the rest of the class.

The whole situation stinks.

Yepp, grammar schools are a lot harder to get into than selective private schools. Grammar schools in areas where there are only few such as Watford grammar, henrietta Barnet or parmiter's school are even harder to get into as so many applicants are competing for spaces. Children who are applying from prep school for these places are usually doing a whole lot better than the state school kids as for example the maths paper included maths they haven't yet covered in the state system.

Chose a Prep school that finishes at age 11 and sends most of its leavers to grammar. Round here two Prep schools boast 90% pass rates in the grammar exams.

Do not choose an ‘all through’ Prep, or a Prep that finishes at age 13, as their priority is to persuade you to stay and not go to grammar.

You will need a tutor, I auggeat you choose one in year 1-2 (there are some long waiting lists) and start tutoring in yr 4. It doesn’t have to be unpleasant if it is get a different tutor.

Grammar schools in Kent have a tough 11 + exam, far tougher than our local independents. It's called the Kent Test and if parents can afford the next choice is Independent where the test to get in is generally viewed as much easier - if they even have one. So I think it depends on where you live. Selective and fee paying schools in London have very tough tests (sometimes slightly different provider maybe but same format and subjects) and the few and far between state grammars in London are exceptionally tough to get into.

The Kent Test - any primary prep will be aware and doing a good job of covering knowledge but still if your child has a significant weakness ie maths or (non) verbal reasoning or English comp etc they'll still need a tutor if you're really pushing for the grammar secondary education. Otherwise with an all rounder they'll be fine in a prep.