11+ at private schools same as entrance exam for grammar schools?

[maggie3kids]

Applying to primary schools with the intention of grammar secondary. Our main motivation for choosing an independent(private) primary school is that they do the 11+ exam. Apparently this is wrong because each grammar school has their own 11+ exam so whatever they do at primary doesn’t matter.

Can anybody shed some light on this please as it is going to impact us a lot more financially so I want to make sure private school will (help to) solidify entry into a grammar i.e. reduce need for tutoring and examination stress. Thank you!

Admission to these highly selective schools often requires intensive tutoring at early years. However, many many naturally bright students, who do not tutored at early stage are found in other schools, ultimately achieved the same or better outcome. I’m uncertain about the purpose of creating such a concentrated clustering of students within the education system at age of 11.

@Edinb - in London, it may be far cheaper to opt for selective grammar than buy your way into an expensive state catchment or pay for private school. A lot of Asian parents won’t church their way into faith schools either so it is a good option for them. Nobody in London has to do it though, there are plenty of other good schools around so these schools are not threatening any other school or model.
Many aspirational, educationally motivated parents (which includes a lot of immigrants who are NOT rich) want their kids around similar families. They want their kids away from trouble makers who disrupt and cause havoc and don’t respect teachers or studies. So people pay for catchment, tutor for grammar or pay for private school or go to church weekly. It is all part of the same self selection.

@Araminta1003

I believe that in London area, many aspirational and educationally motivated parents do not choose selective secondary schools. They might not like the idea or see the point of schools where the majority of families are obsessed with tutoring and selecting students based on the 11+ exam. This is different from catchment, or faith schools, which focus more on geographical locality and community. It seems to be a form of self-selection by the families, and the concept of such schools has the least merit and does not save any money .

Faith schools are also self-selection and so are catchment schools, people deliberately buying their way into a school via a house/address is probably the crudest form of blatant buying your way in. At least grammar comes with some ability and effort over and above cash alone, and at least private school saves the government some money.

Personally though, I have respect for anyone who invests in their DC’s education be that time, money, going to church, studying at home, paying up, tutoring whatever. It makes no difference to me. Valuing education is a good thing, in whatever form. There need not be such blatant one upmanship and trying to limit other people’s choices as seems to be the acceptable dogma right now. It is tedious and boring all this anti grammar, anti private anti faith nonsense as if somehow buying your way into a catchment is the holy grail of moral superiority, when the truth is clearly the opposite. All just different forms of educational selection. Plus in any event there are plenty of parents tutoring to get into top set comp after buying their way into catchment, especially in London.

At least grammar comes with some ability and effort over and above cash alone
How naive. It has been obvious for decades that grammar schools are also very much dependant on the level of affluence 11+ tutoring is not for free. The house prices in the grammar catchments are up the roof

Nobody in London has to do it though, there are plenty of other good schools around
In London we also have catchments and the property prices in catchment are determining who gets in. It is not like we have a choice of all schools in London

@PeachSalad - there are grammars with no catchment and those tend to be the most superselective, plenty of parents just buy books at Waterstones/on Amazon and sit with their DCs and don’t pay for a tutor. They may buy one mock test for £50 type thing and yes they will spend on books. But it’s often far cheaper than buying a house and moving plus stamp duty or renting in an expensive catchment and that is why people do it.

@Araminta1003 I won’t try to trivialize selective schools or equate them to other forms of school admission criteria. Faith schools prioritize religious affiliation, and schools by catchment prioritize residential location. Both of these types of schools, in essence, still admit students of mixed abilities and do not require any prior specific tutoring effort for a child to get in. While you can argue that some parents might buy a house in a particular area or attend religious services to secure a place for their child, these actions are not driven by academic selection criteria.

@Araminta1003 the tutoring centres for 11+ are flourishing businesses and with the acceptance rate in superselective schools the parents of successful.kids enroll their kids in the 11+ courses and additionally tutor at home. And it is not cheaper to invest in grammar tutoring than move the house. If a child is accepted they have to move to make the commute possible. In particular the schools with no cachment observe the parents moving from as far as Brighton if a child was accepted.

Not for us @PeachSalad - some of the grammars are quite local and lots of the local primary school children did get in, in the past 5 years at least. Our primary performs very well, usually top of the league in the borough and sometimes amongst the top state primaries nationally for Sats too, always has quite a few kids going to grammar. And plenty of parents do DIY in our borough, if you are educated to degree level it isn’t rocket science.

@Araminta1003
Our primary school is also rated as Outstanding, and its SATs results were significantly above the national average, particularly in Maths. Notably, we have 4-5 non-selective state schools in this borough that rank among the top 100 state schools in the UK for GCSE results. The closest single-gender grammar schools are 45 minutes to an hour away in Kingston, and it is noticable that it is very popular among South Asian families. They seem to value grammar schools and competition more than the good teaching and pastoral care. From our school wqs only a handful grammar candidates: one girl was accepted into Tiffin Girls' School, and one boy was admitted to another grammar school in North London, leading their families to move. Both children are of Indian origin.

My son, however, is not suited to a single-gender school environment. He will be attending an excellent Catholic school. It's not just about the ability to do DIY; it's about how it affects your relationship with your child. My son receives private tutoring in Maths, as he is considering a career in Computer Science or Engineering. I can clearly see how effective my tutoring is (I have two master's degrees), compared to his father (a PhD scientist) or my mother, who is brilliant at Maths, versus a professional tutor.

“Notably, we have 4-5 non-selective state schools in this borough that rank among the top 100 state schools in the UK for GCSE results”

@PeachSalad - if we had that within our locality then most of the kids in our state primary would not be trying for grammar. It’s very much the case that there are some great comps dotted around with small catchments and moving into them is very expensive. So people with bright DC are doing the grammar route or aptitude tests/banding at further away comps, precisely to save money on having to move. It’s different if you rent but if you have a house you like and are looking at paying stamp duty all over again. It’s prohibitively expensive. I would happily have sent mine to a high performing RC school as well.

very much the case that there are some great comps dotted around with small catchments and moving into them is very expensive
Yes, Richmond borough is not cheap when it comes to properties.

It also depends on the specific grammar school. There are great and not so great. Many grammar schools ( and not only ) have been downgraded by Ofsted and always it is worth checking for what reason. In many of those schools the results are driven by hard work of parents and kids and teaching is very average, so is pastoral care. One grammar even was converted to comprehensive with sacking all management due to racial and sexist remarks to pupils.
All grammar school receive less money ler pupil than any other state school. And it is not because of no SEN. SEN budget is assessed separately depending on the school needs.

Each private school has their own 11 plus exam so your kid will need to do one for each school. The grammar system uses a different exam, and I'm not sure if it's the same for all but I doubt it.
Private prep wouldn't be designed to feed into the grammar system though.

My DD goes to a prep in West Midlands. They teach a year in advance compared to state - so year 6 maths is taught in year 5, which is what is needed for 11+. There are also additional in school 11+ sessions and clubs to help prepare. The vast majority go on to grammar schools, despite the prep having a senior school. The senior school also uses the 11+ for entrance, but it is no where near as competitive as getting into grammar.

I certainly would look at percentage of kids in preps you are considering who go in to grammar/seniors/other independents. I think it's something that varies greatly between independent schools and areas.

It might also depend on the size and style of prep you go to.

Mine was one-form entry, up to 11, and although we all did the same 'general' lessons, when it got closer to the exams we'd do the style of papers needed for the schools we were sitting. So our exam practice was completely personalised.

You wouldn't give somebody wanting to go to a less academic school the problem-solving maths paper from the most selective one if they actually needed to practise verbal reasoning the most. And if you didn't need non-verbal reasoning for the schools you were sitting you'd do it in the general lessons, but wouldn't do full papers.

Private preps have detailed leavers destinations eg https://www.hendonprep.co.uk/leaver-destinations/ , the best also say how many places taken up so you get an idea of whether most kids get several offers or a few get loads and most get one or two. Not giving this is a massive red flag. What prep schools are you considering OP? Are you close enough to henrietta barnett to benefit from being local?

Are you looking at a prep school, rather than a private primary which has a senior school? If the latter, they won’t prep the children for the 11+ so it’s not worth it if that is the only reason you would be sending your children there. A prep school, on the other hand, will be preparing all the children to take the 11+ and while exams for different schools are different, (and grammar harder to get into due to the competition for free places) a good prep school ought to cover what they need to know and do past papers with them etc. Though nothing is guaranteed, so you need to remember the child might not pass the 11+ for grammar schools regardless.

So in my view, if you can’t afford private all through, and are determined not to use a state school for secondary school (there are good ones so don’t be wholly put off!) then you might be better going down the state primary with tutoring route and save for private secondary school in case they don’t get into a grammar school but do pass the exams for private school. And yes, start tutoring early (year 4).

Just to add, I can see some people on here saying no need to pay for a tutor. I think that depends on your child. If they are reasonably well behaved and engaged and want to do the work, then that’s fine. But I think it is harder for parents to make some children focus rather than a tutor, with whom most children will be better behaved and complete work for than their parents! I think it makes for better family relationships too so time together is focused on fun and there is no undercurrent of - “and why haven’t you done those quadratic equations I set for you?!”

@Hatscarfgloves exactly

If you’re aiming for a grammar, or a top independent, you need a child who is already in the top five of their class by the time they are in year 4. Then start tutoring early to avoid anxiety.

Don’t you get anxious about tutoring, either. You’re not creating a dependency. Very, very few children are asked to leave academic schools having got in; tutoring helps stretch already bright kids, but it really doesn’t work miracles.

If you can’t afford a tutor, Carol Vorderman and CGP workbooks, together with constant testing of times tables and ambitious reading, are ample support for an able child provided you the parent are willing to support the daily discipline of learning.

Tutoring is very much part of Jewish, Chinese and South Asian heritage cultures - the kids are smart anyway (helped by being bilingual, and in the UK often the offspring of university educated professionals, therefore from both natural and nurtured ability). They are tutored merely to improve learning discipline, speed and exam technique. An hour a week from a tutor really isn’t a magic pill; that’s the daily practice (which requires a naturally studious kid being closely supervised). Cultures that are used to daily discipline in the form of prayers or meditation or even music practice don’t find it onerous.

private preps with tests that don’t align to the national curriculum will cover most of the material required for 11+ You need to then find a tutor for the remaining 20%

True. Some Hindu schools assume parents are using Kumon or tutors so maths can progress every quickly in top sets.

If a child gets a place at a superselective grammar, they're pretty much guaranteed to be learning with hardworking, disciplined, academically focused DC from families that value and support academic achievement highly. They're also likely to have fewer disruptive classmates. For many families who value these things, the years of preparation is easier than paying fees at a highly selective independent or moving house to the effective catchment of an excellent comprehensive school.

I have just skimmed the thread but this is very individual from one prep school to another. Look at the leaver destinations from the schools - how many move into the schools you are looking at? When viewing the schools, ask the head how many apply for the places and success rate. Historically, the majority of children in prep schools have gone onto private secondary and prep schools have focused on this over the state exams. However, with CoL and VAT on fees, there are increasing numbers of parents looking at the state sector and schools are adapting to having them prepared for the state too.

If you are looking at an academic prep school, they will be working 1-2 years ahead of national curriculum and have covered the content by the time of exams. State schools will have not. To be realistic, you will very likely need tutoring for the schools you are looking at irrespective of if they are in prep or state - for exam technique alone if in former, for both content and technique from latter. The competition is fierce and they are up against children who are super bright and tutored. Children from other parts of the country apply for HB and QE because they take applicants from anywhere, pushing marks higher.