11+ at private schools same as entrance exam for grammar schools?

[maggie3kids]

Applying to primary schools with the intention of grammar secondary. Our main motivation for choosing an independent(private) primary school is that they do the 11+ exam. Apparently this is wrong because each grammar school has their own 11+ exam so whatever they do at primary doesn’t matter.

Can anybody shed some light on this please as it is going to impact us a lot more financially so I want to make sure private school will (help to) solidify entry into a grammar i.e. reduce need for tutoring and examination stress. Thank you!

@Edinb

most believe that the educational outcomes, such as grades, make grammar schools a worthwhile investment.

The same kids would do equally well in good comprehensives. In the end the education in grammar schools is mainly driven by parents and kids.
Maybe as a bonus those.kids would have better self esteem as they would not have prodigy kids in the class like Mahnoor Cheema

@PeachSalad

What is not true, that comprehensive schools have sets?

I will include my entire statement, which you chose to selectively quote.

Most of all, you're assuming that the students who work so hard to try for these places have an alternative of a good comprehensive with excellent teachers and a strong top set. That's not true for all of these students.

If you still don't understand my assertion, I can't do anything else to help your comprehension.

@PeachSalad

The schools receive specific amount per pupil - £5500 and grammar school receive -£4500. SEN department is separately funded depending on how many kids they have on SEN register including EHCP and SEN monitoring fund. This number changes each year depending on the needs of that year.
SEN departments in grammar school receive less money as they have fewer SEN kids. But that has nothing to do with the fact that per pupil funding is lower. It is a separate fund.

My understanding is that the basic entitlement varies somewhat between regions but is substantially the same for schools within a region. AFAIK, most of the difference between per-pupil grammar school funding and per-pupil comprehensive funding is due to differences in the deprivation funding, because grammars have a much lower percentage of pupil premium students. I agree that SEN is separate. Please point me to a source which shows that grammar schools have lower basic funding than comprehensive schools in the same area.

I think you meant:
That's not true for many of these students. @user149799568 ?
That would make sense.

That's not true for all of these students, as you written sounds as if they had never an option of an outstanding comprehensive with top academics, which is not true on many cases. Some are. E.g in my borough we have few of those but some kids decide to commute 1h to grammar school.

@PeachSalad

in top 100 state schools sith best results are not only grammar schools but also SE London comprehensive schools like Brampton Manor that sends to Oxbridge more kids more than any grammar?

Not this year. Queen Elizabeth's School Barnet has more Oxbridge places. With only half the number of students.

Fair enough. Where I come from, "that is not true for all" is usually interpreted literally, as the negation of "that is true for all". I meant to say that not all students have the alternative of a good comprehensive school if they can't get a place at a superselective.

I believe that even a good comprehensive school in London is not ‘good’ enough because the presence of super-selective grammar schools ensures that any non-selective school will rank lower in the league tables. This creates a strong stigma among certain groups of families.

Given that there are over 30 boys competing for each place, many schools, if they choose to be highly selective, could secure a number of Oxbridge places to beat the odds.

True, but it's not as though Brampton Manor Academy's Oxbridge results really reflect a fully non-selective school. They are non-selective at 11+, but fewer than half their GCSE students are allowed to remain for sixth form. More than half their sixth form students are academically selected from external candidates at 16+. This is not true at Queen Elizabeth's Barnet or Henrietta Barnett.

If your private school also has a secondary, then they will not prep for grammar as they assume your child will be staying on at their school.

“Circling around to the funding issue again, some grammar schools, such as Queen Elizabeth's in Barnet manage to raise a significant amount of donations from these very supportive parents.

That raises about 500 pounds per student per year, OK is this subject to VAT?”

@Edinb - is the VAT reference meant to be some sort of a joke?
Donations to state school PTAs are subject to gift aid as most PTAs are charities, but PTAs can only spend on certain things. So an additional rate tax payer can claim more of it back from HMRC and often there is match funding too from employers. To get to an overall figure of £500 you don’t need to give a full £500 (PTAs with charitable status can claim back too).

Not a joke, maybe private school can borrow the same model to make the PTA like charity which is outside the school itself to get VAT exemption..

Many sixth form colleges academically select external candidates at 16+, mostly based on GCSE results. The majority of these candidates come from comprehensive state schools. I would argue that they have the same or even higher chances of getting into Oxbridge, given the ultimate selection ratio.

@user149799568 but I bet they are swxond with 50 Oxbridge places

I'd love to know how many of the 50 are from the students they educated since Year 7 and how many are from the ones they selected at 16+.

One thing for sure is many of them were educated at nonselective comprehensive before 16

This creates a strong stigma among certain groups of families.
@Edinb what stigma? What do you mean by that.🤯
I would say that grammar schools have various stigmas around. E.g.Snobbish race for top of the top of grammar schools as well as a perception that it school for kids of South Asian immigrants hothousing their offspring, and many more.

Btw above we were discussing top 100 state schools and in that top not all are grammar schools .There are quite a few comprehensive schools almost as good as Brampton Manor comprehensive.

I agree your definition of stigma, a good comprehensive school, like top 100 in the league table is not good enough for some, giving similar funding, shorter commute, better facilities and etc.

@Edinb It is usually not good enough fpr some localities in terms of academics because the grammar schools most often have less funding per pupil and for the same reason the facilities are leaving much to demand.

I agree that when looking at results, people need to look very carefully at GCSEs, progress and then A level and try and understand who joins at A level, how many are kept on etc. and how much bigger the intake gets or contracts.

If you think 11 plus is stressful, what about the poor kids who are in so called sought after comps who then only keep a fraction of those kids on at A level, preferring very much to cream off the top GCSE external candidates from all over and then dine out on their success in the A level league tables?

The grammars have the pupil funding that’s the same as other secondaries. They would not get as much PP or Sen money. As you would expect.

There are a few key differences for selection for 11+ and selection entry for sixth-form. The 11-plus exam is taken by younger children, whose development can vary widely. Preparation often requires tutoring driven by parent and family not the studnet itself.

Sixth-form selection offers more choices and is less stressful as students are older and more involved.

And a lot of grammar schools sixth-form has very strict criteria for their intake and A level course selection too, one would argue they are more evil because they effectively select twice, cream off the top and cream off again at 16.

A Level is often when grammar schools with lots of Indian kids become more diverse - as expat parents often send their kids back to India at that point.

Not here. Everyone lives here and they are British. They don’t go anywhere.

Do they? I’ve never heard of that before. Why would Indian families choose the Indian equivalent of sixth form instead of carrying on at a UK grammar?