11+ at private schools same as entrance exam for grammar schools?

[maggie3kids]

Applying to primary schools with the intention of grammar secondary. Our main motivation for choosing an independent(private) primary school is that they do the 11+ exam. Apparently this is wrong because each grammar school has their own 11+ exam so whatever they do at primary doesn’t matter.

Can anybody shed some light on this please as it is going to impact us a lot more financially so I want to make sure private school will (help to) solidify entry into a grammar i.e. reduce need for tutoring and examination stress. Thank you!

learning with hardworking, disciplined, academically focused DC from families that value and support academic achievement highly. They're also likely to have fewer disruptive classmates

There is ample evidence showing that parental involvement correlates with a child’s academic success. However, this does not necessarily mean that one must study within a selective setting to achieve these benefits. Are there concrete studies supporting the idea that such an environment benefits individual students or the student body as a whole? Or is the notion of an ‘academic focus bubble’ providing significant advantages merely a fantasy.

You asked the question "why do this". I believe that I've given a common answer of what many parents are looking for. If you believe that it makes no difference to a child's academic achievement whether they have more or fewer disruptive classmates, or whether their classmates have higher or lower academic expectations, I suggest that these parents would put the burden on you to prove your assertion rigorously.

Not all parents are in the effective catchments of good comprehensive state schools, particularly in London where there are "black holes", which are even larger if you're not Christian. For some of these parents, the free alternative to a superselective isn't a good state comprehensive.

“There is ample evidence showing that parental involvement correlates with a child’s academic success. However, this does not necessarily mean that one must study within a selective setting to achieve these benefits. Are there concrete studies supporting the idea that such an environment benefits individual students or the student body as a whole? Or is the notion of an ‘academic focus bubble’ providing significant advantages merely a fantasy.”

You do realise plenty of people are prejudiced against academic left leaning studies and political dogma of the day, and prefer to rely on their own personal experience? Plenty of people are also quite financially and statistically savvy and have a modicum of incredulity when it comes to certain studies that have been the dogma of the day for eg 10 years and then suddenly disproven? Not everyone signs up blindly to some study by a revered academic from UCL or Oxford? Preferring to rely on gut instinct and capitalist/competitive tendencies?
You know like - I don’t care if my kid would get 10 A stars in this school and that school too - I just want them to be around really driven capitalists so they chose a job that actually pays a decent salary in the future and they have a nice life.

Is the idea of a ‘black hole’ or a less comprehensive education perceived by the same group of parents who believe that only super-selective grammar schools are viable options?

My daughter passed the 11+ without any tutoring 🤔

Global warming does not exist. Don’t look up and don’t pay attention to left-leaning research; I trust my own experience. Let me get an aircon installed for my kids.

“Is the idea of a ‘black hole’ or a less comprehensive education perceived by the same group of parents who believe that only super-selective grammar schools are viable options?“

Not really, where I live there are sought after schools and not sought after schools. Those with better SEN provision, good management, good catchment and good results and typically at least good or often outstanding Ofsted are sought after. Parents have also cottoned on to the fact that Ofsted rating can also be political in that some trendy criteria of the day can bring the rating down and parents typically care much more about good stable teaching staff and supportive management, other good families who value education and community and results, in that order. Parents are far smarter than politicians and academics realise. And most parents just want their DC to thrive by being happy at school and having good friends and no tolerance of bulllying.
The chaotic schools, with poor results, much higher than local average FSM, unmet SEN needs, lots of disruption, poorer results are less sought after. There is also often more bullying (including amongst staff) and lack of leadership in the latter. The trouble is that quite often local gossip can make or break a school very quickly. So 1-2 years of terrible management, teachers leave, parents in the know take their kids out et voila - no longer a good school. Local parental opinion matters far more than people realise to the success of a school. That is also why most people give zero hoots about some academic research.

Where's your evidence that peer group expectations and behaviour have no influence on children's academic achievement?

“Global warming does not exist. Don’t look up and don’t pay attention to left-leaning research; I trust my own experience. Let me get an aircon installed for my kids.“

Well if you live in India or Greece or Turkey you are going to need aircon if you want your DC to do well in their exams and sleep well the night before. What exactly is your point?

parents typically care much more about good stable teaching staff and supportive management, other good families who value education and community and results, in that order

From what you describe, it seems that selective schools might be a moot point if the government can provide stable teaching staff and supportive management.

In the super-selective grammar school I know of, the management is constantly changing, and the teaching is mediocre. There was a suicide case a few years ago, and Ofsted downgraded the school. Yet, parents still flock to it because of the results.

We are not in Greece or Turkey, so air conditioning is not essential. What is your point in discrediting studies and research while hoping your kids do well in exams and learn from the institutions that produce this research?

I assume there is evidence as such if there is positive influence?

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/grammar-schools-fail-the-top-university-test-7dcbjgrzc

Where I live in London there is one state secondary my kids would reliably get into. At that school, just over 35% get five passes at GCSE. No thanks

Let me guess. 20+ years ago, or to a less selective private school or both?

“In the super-selective grammar school I know of, the management is constantly changing, and the teaching is mediocre. There was a suicide case a few years ago, and Ofsted downgraded the school. Yet, parents still flock to it because of the results.”

Like I said, I do not trust Ofsted to be fully consistent and some anecdote about a suicide in a pupil who attended a particular school, where is the causation? The press constantly picks up on mental health issues of pupils in top private and grammar schools, when sadly mental health issues are growing across the whole school population. Unless there was persistent bullying in that particular school that was negligently ignored by staff and management which then directly led to a child committing suicide, it’s not relevant. And in that case I would have expected heads to role for it - did they, were they proven to breach their duty of care towards a pupil?

I am not discrediting academic research. It has its place in society, of course. However, it will hardly come as a surprise to many that general public opinion of expert studies etc and respect for academics is not at its best in British society? Someone choosing a life of ideas, it is a way of life, but often quite removed from real life and the dog eats dog world on the ground.
I personally do have respect for studies and would read them with interest, but I don’t think the general public chooses a school based on academic research or even what Central Government of the day or the DFE tell them. Far more concerned about hard facts aka results, teacher turnover and local gossip. And plus I know a lot of academics who chose schooling for their own DC based on local opinion too, by the way, and looking at a school and the former.

We're in Bucks. Everyone sits the 11+ exam for state Grammars. And almost everyone tutors, no matter if you're in state or private primary.

Maybe that’s a localised view as I can assure you where I live the selective private schools are way harder to get into than the grammar schools.

Many parents used the grammar exam as a back up in case they can’t get into the highly selective private schools.

Recent fee increases have priced some out of private so they of course now only target grammars but of those who do try to gain entry to the highly selective private schools I’ve never heard of anyone turn down a place in favour of a free grammar place.

However, it will hardly come as a surprise to many that general public opinion of expert studies etc and respect for academics is not at its best in British society

The parents who choose to sit their children in superselective schools exam in London are heavily skewed towards a certain group, and certainly do not represent the general public opinion or the broader British society, nor at its best.

What if this school also gets the students who were ‘creamed off’ by the neighborhood grammar schools - if the grammar school not taking students by selection anymore? How would the results have changed? Would you change your mind then?

Not a grammar area particularly. One super selective which gets over 2500 applicants for 90 places and otherwise usual mix of comp and private.

So the mix of comp get way below national average result? What was the reason?

No idea. But I'm not going to find out via my kids.

I certainly know what is the reason of the grammar school grade being high. The 90 intake number seems to be incredibly low for London grammar schools compared to the people sit in it. So the rest 2410 kids can certainly find out easily.

“However, it will hardly come as a surprise to many that general public opinion of expert studies etc and respect for academics is not at its best in British society“

I was referring to Brexit, not a few grammar school parents in London. Although I don’t think you can have it both ways - either they are a privileged educated demographic leading to the results of their DC, or they are not. Which one is it going to be?
The vast majority of the country does not care too much about grammars as it only represents 5% of the population and private school is 6.5% overall. But that does not mean that attacking PS and GS parents and kids is a good idea. Policy by default because they are a minority = discrimination.

https://trustforlondon.org.uk/data/gcse-attainment-borough/

Bromley, Sutton etc with grammars still attain highly.