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Secondary education

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Original poster

Rules on putting a hand one children, eg putting hand out to stop them expiring doing something

126 replies

Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 07:22

What are the rules on physically touching students eg a student I'd reaching for something and a hand is put one their arm tk stop them and then snatching things and pulling things from them... Escalating the situation.

OP posts:
MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 13/10/2023 08:20

Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 08:06

Definitely seen as a nuisance. All been offered is fidget toys but they are too loud and then removed

So the playing computer games in class isn't on a plan? As pp say, then you need to meet with the school to put things in place that will hopefully work and are agreed so they can be put in place.
Your story has escalated from the teacher putting their hand to stop the child taking something they shouldn't to a full on tug of war.
What class is it which is fully on a computer though? (Spot the 90s kid!)

Teachingteacher · 13/10/2023 08:22

The school will have a safeguarding and/or child protection policy which outlines the rules on touching students. It also depends on the country you're in and the Government DOE's child protection rules.

My personal rule is that I never, under any circumstances, touch a student. I've seen a career ended for gently touching a student on the shoulder. It's just not worth it. I have some younger primary students who hug me, and I hold my arms up in the air and don't reciprocate. Most of my colleagues who have been teaching for 10+ years follow the same rules as I do. I always advise practice teachers or newer teachers to never touch a student.

Shinyandnew1 · 13/10/2023 08:22

Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 08:14

Fidget toys are not working

Perhaps quiet fidget toys should be tried?

You appear to be deliberately avoiding questions here which makes it very difficult for anyone here to answer you in a useful way.

My advice would be to make an appointment with either the class teacher or senco (or both) and talk about what provision is listed in Section F (if they have an EHCP) or what’s on their individual learning plan and talk about what’s working/not working and any changes that can be made.

Mariposista · 13/10/2023 08:24

No advice OP, but just had to say - is it any wonder that teachers are leaving the profession in droves? All this time taken up with stuff like this rather than actually teaching. I swear it wasn't like this 20 years ago.The kids just rule nowadays.

Soontobe60 · 13/10/2023 08:25

First of all, who has told you about this? I would speak to the Senco and ask them to look into what happened then arrange a meeting to discuss your concerns.
It concerns me that a child in a mainstream classroom who is doing the same work as the rest of the class is trying to play solitaire on a device whilst presumably the teacher is teaching. I would expect something else to be utilised in that situation such as a squidgy ball, bluvtac or a sensory aid that doesn’t make a distracting noise. There are plenty of such things on the market. I would be using now/next strategies (now learning time next solitaire time) with clear timings.
Ideally and adult wouldn’t need to put their hand in a student because the student would comply with instructions. If the student is refusing to put the device away, then I would expect it to be removed.
We have several ASD children in my mainstream school, some are waiting for a place at Special, they have their own bespoke learning, whilst others are able to attend all mainstream lessons with appropriate support and adjustments.

Starseeking · 13/10/2023 08:27

Sounds like you have a DC with additional needs attending mainstream school, and while there are some adjustments/accommodations made, there is no formal plan in place, meaning teacher is removing disturbances from class as they see them, with DC resisting. Whether that's because DC doesn't understand due to their needs, or it's not been explained to them is unclear.

Sounds like you need to get a formal plan in place, making sure it specifies what the accommodations are and how DC accesses them. Start with the school SENCo.

You focussing on whether the teacher took a computer out of DC hands and whether that is allowed is a distraction to the above.

Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:30

Mariposista · 13/10/2023 08:24

No advice OP, but just had to say - is it any wonder that teachers are leaving the profession in droves? All this time taken up with stuff like this rather than actually teaching. I swear it wasn't like this 20 years ago.The kids just rule nowadays.

Autism is a disability.. autistic children have additional needs and this should be addressed so they have same chances as other children.

Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:32

Soontobe60 · 13/10/2023 08:25

First of all, who has told you about this? I would speak to the Senco and ask them to look into what happened then arrange a meeting to discuss your concerns.
It concerns me that a child in a mainstream classroom who is doing the same work as the rest of the class is trying to play solitaire on a device whilst presumably the teacher is teaching. I would expect something else to be utilised in that situation such as a squidgy ball, bluvtac or a sensory aid that doesn’t make a distracting noise. There are plenty of such things on the market. I would be using now/next strategies (now learning time next solitaire time) with clear timings.
Ideally and adult wouldn’t need to put their hand in a student because the student would comply with instructions. If the student is refusing to put the device away, then I would expect it to be removed.
We have several ASD children in my mainstream school, some are waiting for a place at Special, they have their own bespoke learning, whilst others are able to attend all mainstream lessons with appropriate support and adjustments.

Agree

Mariposista · 13/10/2023 08:37

Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:30

Autism is a disability.. autistic children have additional needs and this should be addressed so they have same chances as other children.

Edited
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Apparently at the detriment of all the others in the class who have to sit there waiting while the teacher sorts this out as opposed to teaching their subject

chosenone · 13/10/2023 08:38

If in a mainstream setting the normal behaviour policy will be used with adjustments for SEND as detailed in the EHCP. If the child is deliberately trying to be defiant then yes this can be dealt with. Many classes have around 8 students with EHCP AND school support on their profiles.

The use of a soft touch or tap is deemed ok in this setting. The use of restraint is deemed ok if the situation becomes dangerous.

Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:39

Mariposista · 13/10/2023 08:37

Apparently at the detriment of all the others in the class who have to sit there waiting while the teacher sorts this out as opposed to teaching their subject

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No...there should be a plan in place if an intervention is needed. That's on the school and not addressing childs needs effectively

rainuntilseptember · 13/10/2023 08:46

So, I wouldn't allow a student to do this in class - we have an app set up so I can see what everyone is doing on their (school provided) screens. But, if it was part of a plan for the student that support for learning told me about, then I would. So I think you need to get this out in writing and communicated that way.
Does he have a time out pass as sometimes a quick walk in the corridor could resettle.

saraclara · 13/10/2023 08:46

Can you PLEASE tell us if he has an EHCP that allows for him to play solitaire? I don't know why you think that that information is outing, and it makes all the difference.

I can only speak for my special school with regard to touching, and yes, redirection/removal touch was allowed.

rainuntilseptember · 13/10/2023 08:47

Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:39

No...there should be a plan in place if an intervention is needed. That's on the school and not addressing childs needs effectively

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Do you think there are members of staff sitting around twiddling their thumbs and refusing to help?
ASN is woefully underfunded and it's only going to get worse.

Original poster
Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 08:47

Well the child is much calmer and can listen and learn better whilst allowed to do something else at the same time.
Other dc do but they've dont get noticed.
Unfortunately it's fighting over this removal that's causing all the issues.

OP posts:
Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:48

rainuntilseptember · 13/10/2023 08:46

So, I wouldn't allow a student to do this in class - we have an app set up so I can see what everyone is doing on their (school provided) screens. But, if it was part of a plan for the student that support for learning told me about, then I would. So I think you need to get this out in writing and communicated that way.
Does he have a time out pass as sometimes a quick walk in the corridor could resettle.

Yes the time out pass is great idea, my DGS had one.. rarely uses but its there for comfort just incase.
I wouldn't personally be happy if he was allowed to play solitaire on PC in lessons, theres other things he could do to soothe. Definitely need a meeting for support plan at school

gotomomo · 13/10/2023 08:48

The arrangements for students with autism vary a lot, but I've never heard of a child allowed to play computer games during class, if it's not in their echp then the teacher is not going to allow them to have a computer. Plus the rest of the class will want to play too

Original poster
Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 08:48

Yes there is ehcp and it states sitting still hard

OP posts:
Original poster
Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 08:49

Time out pass not allowed

OP posts:
Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:51

Whstaretheruies · 13/10/2023 08:48

Yes there is ehcp and it states sitting still hard

Then there needs to be a meeting at school to reiterate needs...and all teachers DC has should be notified of those needs in class..and what works for child to regulate

rainuntilseptember · 13/10/2023 08:51

It's really not OP it's not having it as a need communicated to all his teachers.
The "everyone else is doing it" is a line trotted out by teens, not parents!
There must be someone in the school you can speak to to ask if this could be allowed, at the teachers discretion, to support your dc.
I have a no headphone rule, for example, but some students sit with headphones on as I've been asked to let them for various reasons

Loubelle70 · 13/10/2023 08:52

rainuntilseptember · 13/10/2023 08:47

Do you think there are members of staff sitting around twiddling their thumbs and refusing to help?
ASN is woefully underfunded and it's only going to get worse.

Show quote history

I think some teachers cant be bothered yes.
Its not the childs fault its underfunded. The school needs to address this child's needs

gotomomo · 13/10/2023 08:53

@Loubelle70

Autism isn't necessarily a disability, it's a difference. My dd gets very angry if anyone describes her as having a disability! Her brain is different to mine but she's smarter than me and incredibly gifted in certain ways. Autism varies a lot in severity so what works for one doesn't for another, she certainly didn't have distractions in class, but she had a pass card to go and work elsewhere if the classroom was too noisy. She's at university now

rainuntilseptember · 13/10/2023 08:58

@Loubelle70 what's your suggestion then?

blanketnugget · 13/10/2023 09:04

@gotomomo They probably mean legally. It's classed as a disability under the law like the Equality Act 2010 etc, hence the accommodations like pass cards your daughter was legally entitled to.

A lot of neurodiverse people (ADHD, autism, etc) disagree on whether it's a disability. Some like your daughter get upset at it being called a disability, yet others get angry if they're told it's not a disability (I forgot the term they use for this but it's something like whitewashing). Quite vocal people (especially online) in both camps. I don't think the debate is really relevant in this thread tbh.