Secondary school - summer uniform?

[OneSugar1]

does your school have one and if so what’s it like?

our school doesn’t and I feel so sorry for the kids in this weather. Girls in thick kilt like skirts, boys in trousers, everyone in ties. They have to ask to take their blazers off and I don’t think permission is unreasonably withheld but not sure why permission is needed🤷‍♀️

No it actually happens. I used to work in a school where blazers could not be removed unless the head sent an email to the teachers to say they could be removed in lessons and they had to be worn in the corridors at all times. It's disgusting how students can be treated so poorly and yet be expected just to put up with it.

The ‘well I work in an uncomfortable environment so why shouldn’t kids’ is an exceptionally poor one. As another poster said - it isn’t a race to the bottom 🙄

I agree, but on the other hand I think it's unreasonable to expect pupils to be able to turn up to school in whatever summerwear they want when it's a bit warm, when this just isn't going to be matched by the reality of many workplaces. In the same way that not all adults at work can go to the toilet whenever they want, or have their meal breaks at regular times. I'm not saying that children should be made to suffer extreme conditions or be made to feel ridiculously uncomfortable, but unfortunately real life does have minor hardships associated with it, and I don't think that whole bands of well meaning parents ganging up against the headteacher or SLT is going to help matters

@Givenupgivingashit - what’s wrong with children wearing shorts and T-shirt to school when it’s warm? Didn’t do my DC’s any harm.
Being too hot (or too cold) isn’t a minor inconvenience- why shouldn’t they be wearing weather appropriate clothing. We’re trying to produce responsible children who can think for themselves and make correct choices. This is the opposite of needing permission to remove a layer of clothing.
When the weather is warm, I change what I wear to work (was in an international law firm last week and many were wearing tailored shorts), why shouldn’t school children?

Assuming that we're talking about high school rather than primary age here; unless you're going to insist that pupils wear their PE kit all day every day, which has an element of uniformity and functionality about it, you will end up with girls turning up in tiny midriff exposing tops, tiny shorts, etc, etc, which in turn will create its own issues.

Not correct - DT’s and their school friends wore shorts and T-shirts to school in warm weather from ages 4-18. They weren’t inappropriate. They knew what was acceptable - didn’t need a dress code or teachers policing them.

What do you think happens in warm weather in the US, France, Italy etc. It seems that it’s only the UK that has a problem.

My kids school says blazers and ties are optional in hot weather. Girls don't wear ties anyway and mine wear shorts sleeves year round no probs. They are actually quite relaxed about uniform considering, selective mixed independent in SE.

Well for a start the vast majority of European/US schools, as far as I am aware, do not have the same formal uniforms that we have in UK schools. Therefore the novelty factor of wearing ones own clothes just doesn't occur, because it is the norm to wear those to school as it is to everywhere else. Interestingly France is considering a trial reintroduction of uniforms for school pupils.
If you were to advocate the wearing of shorts/t-shirts as a summer uniform by UK pupils, then this would surely necessitate the purchase of extra items, which for some parents would add to an already large uniform bill for standard items

@Givenupgivingashit "I agree, but on the other hand I think it's unreasonable to expect pupils to be able to turn up to school in whatever summerwear they want when it's a bit warm, when this just isn't going to be matched by the reality of many workplaces."

??? We are not talking about minor inconveniences. We are not talking about bringing up entitled princes and princesses. We are talking about weather-inappropriate clothes, which cause unnecessary stress and inconvenience to pupils, making it unnecessarily harder to concentrate and to learn. Is that fine for you? Why?

Why is everyone ignoring or dismissing the stress and mental harm which unnecessary and capricious rules can cause? Adults can and do have mental breakdowns over this stuff, surely you don't think children are immune?

And the solution? I'm not talking about 'whatever summerwear', but about iitems to choose from a well-defined lists. What sort of chaos do you think would ensue if one student turns up with a long shirt, one with a short shirt, and one with a cardigan, because they all react differently to the same temperature? Please, do enlighten us.

"you will end up with girls turning up in tiny midriff exposing tops, tiny shorts, etc, etc, which in turn will create its own issues."
See above. What makes you think the only alternative would be to allow "whatever summerwear"? How does the rest of the world manage without these draconian uniform rules?

"If you were to advocate the wearing of shorts/t-shirts as a summer uniform by UK pupils, then this would surely necessitate the purchase of extra items, which for some parents would add to an already large uniform bill for standard items"
As I said in my other post, Sainsbury sells a set of 5 white short school shirts for £8, and a set of 2 school shorts for £10.
Most schools have second-hand uniform sales.
Many schools/PTAs, churches, food banks charities (ever heard of the brilliant Little Village?) etc help the families who need it the most directly. In fact, if uniform rules were more standardised and more reasonable, rather than catering to whatever the head in question was thinking because they didn't get lid, it would be much easier to provide such banal items of clothing as white shirts or grey shorts to the families most in need!!!* Ever thought of that?

"Well for a start the vast majority of European/US schools, as far as I am aware, do not have the same formal uniforms that we have in UK schools" And that alone tells you that the Sutton Trust is right in saying there's no evidence of a clear link between uniforms and behaviour / performance!!

My observation has been that the indies are generally much less strict and insane about uniform than state schools.

Surely that is a sensible policy as it ensures consistency and fairness? The DC’s school has a sanitary policy and SLT allow removal in exceptionally warm weather.

Do you have to wait for an email from your MD or COO before you can remove a blazer/cardigan etc.... or are you given freedom of choice that you know if you are hot or not?

Myself and one of my children both run very hot. Why should we suffer?

@OhhhhhhhhBiscuits

Presumably SLT allow removal in very warm weather so I don’t see how anyone is required to suffer.

Why does it only have to be "very warm weather"? What about when it's 20 degrees but someone is still feeling hot? How about we give all humans body autonomy to decide when they are hot or not, not just adults?

@Givenupgivingashit What, no answers?

I was looking forward to your insights on how allowing pupils to choose whether to wear long-sleeved or short-sleeved shirts would create chaos and undermine their learning, on how forcing them to wear weather-inappropriate clothing which makes them sweat unnecessarily helps concentration and learning, etc.

Why so silent?

Are you gathering the latest peer-reviewed scientific research on the matter?

Because you'll never admit you're wrong, won't you?

I've been at work - 2 x 12 hr shifts. So don't get on your high horse - I don't spend all my time on here. And I don't have time to gather scientific research on the pros and cons of school uniform and what effect it has on academic performance, etc, etc.
I don't have a problem with long/short sleeve shirts. My own DDs have a choice, sometimes they will wear short on a cold day and long on a hot day - it's up to them.

So you have now changed your mind and agree that letting pupils choose themselves from a list of pre-approved, weather-appropriate items is sensible, while having to wait for teachers to rule if they think it is hot enough to remove a layer of clothing is not. Good.

No, you were on about pupils wearing shorts/t-shirts instead of their normal uniform

@ParentOfOne
No answer to that then?

??? What question of yours would I have left unanswered??

You went off on a tangent thinking that the only alternative to a weather-inappropriate winter uniform was to let kids wear whatever - do you now see how nonsensical this was and how easy it would be to let kids choose from a pre-approved list?

Do you now see that people react differently to the same temperature and no chaos would ensue if one child wears a cardigan and one doesn't?

You went off on another tangent about the cost of summer uniforms; do you now see that, if Sainsbury's sells 5 short shirts for £8 and 2 shorts for £10 cost isn't much of an issue?? yes, there are people who struggle to afford even that, but there are used uniform sales, food banks, charities (eg Little Village), etc.
Do you now see that, if schools were more reasonable in their uniform code, it would be easier to share used uniforms among schools?

I don't honestly believe that schools are so rigid in their enforcement of uniform rules that they outlaw the removal of blazers/jumpers/rolling up of sleeves, etc if it's too warm in class. I just don't see the need for separate uniforms for warm weather, especially for the very small number of days/weeks for which we actually get any warm weather during the school term. Surely modification of how existing uniform is worn is sufficient.

I don't honestly believe that schools are so rigid in their enforcement of uniform rules that they outlaw the removal of blazers/jumpers/rolling up of sleeves, etc if it's too warm in class.

Most teachers are fine, but some teachers at my child’s school didn’t allow them to remove blazers in the heat last week. It’s ridiculous.

"I have never seen it, so I don't honestly believe it happens".

What an intelligent, constructive, mature and open-minded approach!!!

That's why things will never change...

Maybe you should lead the revolution then. Most parents are too busy just struggling to get through the day to day without having time to focus on such issues

@Givenupgivingashit Are you genetically incapable of admitting when you are wrong?

No one is asking you to interrupt your busy life to solve other people's problems.

But, if you take time from your busy schedule to join these discussions, you could at least keep an open mind and not automatically dismiss everything you haven't experienced directly. Is that too much to ask?

And, again, it's not only for "a very small number of days" that it's hot. Not sure where you are, but in London outdoor temperature can easily be hot from 3 to 6 weeks a year and, depending on the building, it could be very hot inside for more than twice those numbers of days. Many buildings are poorly built and a combination of poor insulation, too much glass, south-facing exposure etc can easily make the internal temperature 30C when outside it's only 24C.

So you see, a more reasonable and constructive approach could have been: "mmm, luckily it's never that hot too often in my kids' school, and, even when it is, the teachers let the kids take off layers as needed, but if someone has a very different experience maybe that should be addressed"...