Secondary school - summer uniform?

[OneSugar1]

does your school have one and if so what’s it like?

our school doesn’t and I feel so sorry for the kids in this weather. Girls in thick kilt like skirts, boys in trousers, everyone in ties. They have to ask to take their blazers off and I don’t think permission is unreasonably withheld but not sure why permission is needed🤷‍♀️

Our Secondary has a summer uniform of polo shirts. Shorts with the school logo can also be worn. They still have to wear blazers though but usually take them off in class if it's hot.

However, it's now Autumn term so they are back in shirts and ties despite it being hotter than it was in the summer. 🙄

My DC’s secondary switched from a uniform with polo shirt to one with tie, blazer and shirt while he was there. The first summer of the new uniform was a hot one and we were a bit disappointed that the ties stayed for the summer term. Girls could wear socks or tights with skirts. There were unisex uniform shop shorts that were not all that popular. Many of the girls wore ankle skimmer trousers and trainer socks until the school vetoed that.

My DC never had long sleeve shirts or the shorts so his uniform was essentially same as winter but no jumper. The blazers they had were not wool, quite thin polyester and machine washable. When we initially heard that was what they would be like I pictured static electric shockwaves anytime I went near. However, the blazers were pretty good

Jumpers are optional in the summer term at the DC’s school. If a particular classroom is exceptionally warm, the teacher can also give permission to remove blazers for that lesson.

I cycle to work and with 2 kids (I haven't updated my nickname after the birth of #2) and have never voted Tory at a general election. But I stand by my comment.

The world is unfortunately polarised between two extremes, with very little room for reasonable voices in between.

Forcing kids to stay in >30C rooms and opposing air conditioning because aircon is evil the planet etc is, IMHO, an eco-taliban view that ignores the damage that extreme heat can cause. If you disagree, could you please kindly explain why we should keep children in >30C rooms? And why live cattle, which it is illegal to transport at >30C, is given better protection than little humans? Thank you.

Thanks for the insight from a governess POV. AlthoughI disagree with for much the same reasons Parentofone has mentioned it’s good to hear what some of the thinking is behind these decisions.
Thanks also for the info from the Sutton trust 👍

Wow, is that how you write to your school? Hopefully you adopt a more diplomatic tone if you want to be taken seriously.

Yes, short sleeves are allowed.

Governance decisions are collective, which means that governors must speak externally with one voice. That doesn't mean there isn't internal discussion and debate. Meeting minutes may give a flavour of that, but they will probably be very high level and may just refer to "some discussion".

Arms-length research findings will always be balanced against the many years of hands-on experience of the senior school leaders who are responsible for the operational running of the school. After all, it is they who need to administer and enforce the policy.

In practice, most parents seem to be fine with the current policy - to date it has just been a small handful of parents who have lobbied for it to change. Some of them already have a history of being rude towards staff, and a bit annoying in the eyes of other parents on school whatsapp groups, so their involvement doesn't help their cause (and I say that as someone who privately agrees with them).

DD’s school is all girls. The uniform, year round, is a short sleeved blouse, no tie, skirt, tights or socks. There is a jumper which you can wear, or not. No blazer. In the hot weather they can go in in PE kit, which to me is much sweatier, but they are happy to wear it as more comfortable.

DS’s school is mixed, wear blazers, long sleeved shirts and ties. In the last summer half term they allow no tie, blazers don’t have to be worn, but this week full uniform was required.

DD’s school is reasonable. There’s no summer uniform, but they have a very clear policy where above one temperature it’s no blazers or ties for the boys and then above another they can go in PE kit. She’s been in PE kit most of the week, only the first day in uniform as they’d booked the photographer for photos. (There were some girls who tried it on by coming in wearing Nike pros instead of the PE shorts, but DD said they were given shorts from lost property to wear over the top.) We just get a text to confirm the night before so no trying to work out what to do last minute. They’re not too strict on uniform, they’re supposed to ask permission to take off blazers, but DD says the teachers just give blanket permission at the start of the class and no one is bothered in between.

In our school, in extreme heat, a letter is sent home to parents to say no blazer or tie required in school. Half of them still come in wearing it though. It was scorching this week and I was boiling (and moaning) and yet half of my class had their blazers on despite me telling them to take it off. They said they don’t want to in case they have sweat patches on their backs.

In the area, our school is perceived to be very strict. However, boys are allowed to wear shorts (only y7-8 actually do) and girls can have socks. Behaviour is exceptional, yet they don’t need to ask to take their blazer off in lessons. They do put it back on for lesson changeover (mainly so things don’t fall out of pockets in busy corridors which creates a trip hazard). There is no expectation for them to wear it at break / lunch / to and from school.

@ParentOfOne There are no circumstances in which the term "ecotaliban" is acceptable. It shows you have no idea about the behaviour of the Taliban, and completely negates any sense you may be displaying in the rest of your post.

DT’s went to a non uniform school from ages 4-18. They wore shorts and T-shirts in the warmer weather. Much more practical than formal clothing. It’s ridiculous some schools saying that you need to ask permission to take off a blazer (useless item of clothing).
Behaviour does not deteriorate by wearing shorts and T-shirt.

@alwaysontap My kids are in a primary which is reasonable on these things. What the best tone should be with despotic, authoritarian figures is always tricky: being too aggressive risks being counter-productive, but being too docile may mean never being taken seriously.

Even if you want to disagree with the Sutton Trust's conclusions (but how can you be sure that, when you saw a change, it was down to the uniform and not to something else?) and want to believe that uniforms really help with performance and behaviour, even in that case surely you will agree there is no need to enforce unreasonable uniform policies which are not appropriate for the weather?

How does forcing girls to wear tights, forcing all pupils to wear long sleeves or jumpers / blazers on top help with behaviour and performance? Why do in so many schools puupils have to wait for the headteacher to say when/if it's hot enough to switch to a summer version of the dress code? This would be inconceivable in the workplace, why do we tolerate it with adults?
If anything, wearing inappropriate clothes is unprofessional (sweaty, red-faced kids will look less tidy than those wearing more appropriate clothes), it hinders concentration and it instils the message that rules and their enforcement are arbitrary and capricious.

Of the reasons you gave for not having a shorter option, cost is a non-issue, as I have shown with links.
As for enforcement: how exactly does your school enforce these rules? If you allow black or dark grey shorts, what is there to enforce, what complication does that add? Do you measure the shade of grey with a colorimeter? Do you measure the length of the shorts because Asda's shorts are 1mm shorter than Sainsbury's??

My DD's school is sensible - they can wear what they like from the uniform list at any time of year.

So that's coloured polo shirt, jumper or hoodie (with a bizarre comment that they can choose to wear both jumper and hoodie together if they want) then skirt, trousers, shorts, school joggers or school leggings on the bottom half.

No boys' or girls' uniform either, just uniform. Oh and shoes - anything plain black including trainers.

I respectfully disagree. It is an (obviously derogatory) way to compare certain people to fundamentalists who are driven by ideology and who are impervious to any kind of evidence clashing with their blind faith. I say the same of Brexiteers, of pro-Venezuela Corbynites, of pro-austerity Tories, or of the Florida nutjobs who are banning books left right and centre (including Romeo and Juliet!)

Would "green extremists" be more palatable to you?

You didn't answer the main question: if you had the option to install aircon in classrooms, would you install it, or would you keep children in rooms at > 30C? Thank you.

@CurlewKate PS in the property forum, I made a long post about options against excessive heat in south-facing rooms. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/property/4233954-What-options-against-excessive-heat-in-south-facing-kitchen-Awnings-window-films-blinds
I am hugely interested in all kinds of solutions which can avoid or limit aircon.

Awnings have been a huge help in our south-facing kitchen.

I would have wanted to install external wall insulation but it was too expensive.

As much as I would like to avoid it, sometimes there is no alternative to aircon.

If you are interested in these topics, look into "PassivHus", a German construction standard which keeps houses warm in the winter and cool in the summer with specific materials, ventilation and orientation. If it were possible, I'd do a PassivHaus retrofit, but, sadly, it's very expensive, and not always possible with older houses.

I was describing my school's policy, and made it clear where it differed from my opinion.

You sound like the sort of parent who would rapidly alienate staff and parents. If you want to make a difference, you need to learn some diplomacy.

Supportive, polite parents with constructive suggestions are much more likely to be listened to than strident, serial complainers.

Yes for girls a stripy cotton dress (which my daughter hated for some reason ). Boys can wear shorts (primary only, not secondary). They are allowed to take off blazers if it's really hot. Hats required outside (again for the primaries).
Summer uniform ok until October half term then after it's winter - wool skirts, blouse and blazer; long trousers, shirt, tie and blazer for boys.

Oh just see you said secondary - well the answer then is no!

@alwaysontap So demolishing your argument of excessive cost with two links showing the clothes are easily and cheapily available alienates the school because it is not diplomatic enough. So does asking what extra enforcement means.

I'd be tempted to think that someone who can't even be bothered to check the cost of certain items with a 3-second google search should have no place dictating school policies, but I want to take your point on diplomacy. If yours were my school, I would bite my tongue and write something along the lines of:

----

Dear XXX,

I appreciate your concern for excessive cost, and I am certainly delighted to see that the school governors are showing concern for these issues, especially during a cost of living crisis which is causing so much damage in our community.

I have most certainly seen myself items of school clothing at unreasonable prices, but, at the same time, I would like to reassure you that reasonably priced alternatives do exist. For example, Sainsbury sells a set of 5 white short-sleeved school shirts f for £8, and a set 2 school shorts for £10. Governors will be reassured in learning that other supermarkets and high-street clothing chains (Asda, M&S, Next) sell similarly priced items, and all allow shopping in their premises or online.

As for the additional burden on checks and enforcement that allowing a summer option would involve, I would like to understand in greater detail what you mean. It is my understanding that most supermarket and clothing shops sell fairly standardises versions of these items of clothing, which would make it very apparent and straightforward to recognise which items comply with the policy and which do not - e.g. distinguishing school shorts vs sportier versions not meant as part of a school uniform. If the governors have specific concerns, it would be most useful to share them, as I am fairly confident a satisfactory solution can be found..

I shall be looking forward to discussing these matters at the next session.

Yours sincerely,

------

Tell me, would this be diplomatic enough? Would this alienate the school? if the school says something stupid which is factually false, what is a diplomatic way to point it out without alienating them?

i didn't make an argument for excessive cost.
So that means you need to work on your comprehension skills too. 🙂

I listed reasons cited by my governing body, and stated that I didn't agree with them.

@alwaysontap Thanks for splitting hair while deflecting and not addressing the main point. Yes, the "reasons which were discussed" even if you were "sympathetic". The point stands that the argument for excessive cost is factually false.

Ds secondary (he left 3 years ago) was no blazer required from May half term. No ties required either when head said. Tailored black knee length shorts could be worn (both sexes) summer term and autumn 1.

Now they also do the weeks of PE lit too like many local secondaries who didn't/ don't have summer option.

Makes me laugh that they spend all year fussing over skirt length of girls, ties being done properly and asking permission to remove blazers (I don't agree with any of it) to then spend increasing a,lungs of time each year with kids coming in in short sports shorts and a polo t shirt.

A summer uniform (or a sensible approach to uniform in general) would make so much more sense to start with.

Personally I'd allow trousers, skirt or knee length shorts, polo or blouse or shirt in a school colour and b neck or hoody logo school jumper all year around.

Kids are at school to learn. Not to be made to feel shit wearing clothes designed for one shape and size and stereotypically for men's works wear.

Why do children need to look professional? Why do children need to behave as adults?

Most workplaces provide you with air conditioning as well, as far as I'm aware, my daughter's secondary barely has any fans in.

It's not.

But hardly any jobs require you to be in shirt, tie and blazer in unventilated and poorly ventilated buildings reaching 30° and having to ask permission to remove a blazer.

Although in the UK, DT’s school had no uniform but their cousins in Canada, US, France and Belgium (also non uniform) were fascinated by uk school uniforms - lots of questions as to why they wore it and what was it for.

Time for the UK schools to modernise their approach to uniform.