Secondary school - summer uniform?

[OneSugar1]

does your school have one and if so what’s it like?

our school doesn’t and I feel so sorry for the kids in this weather. Girls in thick kilt like skirts, boys in trousers, everyone in ties. They have to ask to take their blazers off and I don’t think permission is unreasonably withheld but not sure why permission is needed🤷‍♀️

Start a dialogue with other parents. Take the concerns to the head teacher. You could contact governors. Even start with relaxing certain regulations. Mine went to a school with no uniform - do you know one of the worst things? A large group of parents kept lobbying the head to get a uniform!

The trouble is that many parents don't want to be 'that parent' and they worry about it rebounding on them or their kids down the line.

That's the issue with the statements around 'only a small number of parents have a problem with this' - it ignores all the reasons a parent might not actively lobby the school on a particular issue. Unless the school runs well-designed anonymous surveys, they can have no idea what the parent body thinks based only on proactive feedback or complaints.

I was dreading the start of secondary but our school seems to be pretty sensible so far. Summer uniform can be worn throughout summer term and up to October half term, recognising that weather patterns are changing and September in particular can be just as hot as July. They have options of short sleeved shirt, cotton polo top (either logo or plain, no tie) and can choose between trousers/shorts/skirt. Boys and girls can choose whichever options they prefer. Blazers are worn but it's at students' discretion when to take them off if they're too warm.

The idea that 11 year olds need to be dressed 'professionally' to be able to learn effectively is fucking bonkers though.

You won't be "that parent", @JassyRadlett - your concerns will be well measured and considered. However, if enough parents complain, then the head will need to take account. You can express concerns about the cost and practicality.
However, I do understand why most parents don't do this, it's never easy.

@JassyRadlett I couldn't agree more.
In this thread I have been very upfront about the lack of any evidence for a link between uniforms and behaviour.

If I were to discuss it with a school, I wouldn't be so upfront.
Challenging strongly-held beliefs from the start risks being counterproductive, and the other party may well decide that whatever I have to say from that moment on will be wrong.

In my experience, it is more productive to work within a framework that the other party can accept.
E.g. don't say (even if true) that uniforms are bonkers, say that uniforms are great, but allowing a more weather-appropriate uniform would reinforce the values ethos ( or whatever BS the headteacher wants to insist on) etc etc

You're right, @ParentOfOne - emphasise learning - "a barrier to learning" they'll go for that. The weather, practicality, whatever.
You're spot on that it's bonkers, though.

Sorry, I totally disagree that parents should be banding together and challenging schools. Headteachers and teachers have a hard enough job as it is without nightmare parents making it harder with trivial complaints.

The head at the DC’s school rightly rules with an iron fist and will not hesitate to manage out parents and DC who are causing trouble.

That was like my school. We survived.

My DC go to a school with no uniform. It works fine. When asked to dress smartly (eg for a concert or work experience) they do.

The rest of the time, they are usually in jeans and tops (with some alternative fashion choices such as long skirts or all black) and wear whatever is right for the weather and whatever they’re doing that day.

Teachers don’t spend any time enforcing petty rules around skirt length or hair colour, but do enforce safety (no piercings that can’t be removed for PE).

@Toddlerteaplease "That was like my school. We survived." How long ago was that and how much cooler was the planet then? Regardless, is "surviving" your benchmark? Generations survived a school system with corporal punishment - by the same logic, should we bring that back, too? I survived while my parents drove me around without car seat - should we do the same with our kids in 2023, too? Surely you realise how nonsensical your reasoning is???

@FishyTree I see you continue to dodge the actual questions.

Do you not agree that heat tolerance varies from person to person?

Do you not agree that there can be rooms where it's 5 to 10C warmer than outside?

Do you not agree that being uncomfortable in weather-inappropriate clothing is a hindrance to proper concentration and learning?

Should schools never be challenged? Eg do you agree with the teachers who confiscated a warmer coat after this child got sick with the school-mandated lighter one? https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/jesmond-park-academys-uniform-policy-26016890

What is achieved by forcing kids to wear clothes which are too warm, and what would be lost by letting them choose - not from any clothing, but from a pre-approved list?

Why does the Sutton trust conclude so adamantly that there is no link between uniform and behaviour? Even if there were, is there a link between weather-inappropriate uniforms and behaviour???

@ParentOfOne 1993-2000.

It was very rarely, if ever, that hot then. I remember buying a fan in 2006 after a heatwave and giving it away around 2010 because I had never used it since!!!

So you don’t think that children should be comfortable with the clothes they are wearing to school?

Thankfully I wanted more than ‘surviving’ for my DC’s. Being comfortable in appropriate clothing for the individual assists learning and saves teachers time in imposing draconian rules.

This is crazy
When I was at school in the 90s summer uniform was a short sleeved blouse, no tie, no req for jumper or blazer. There was a stripped skirt option that looked a bit primary school so virtually no one ever had one.
"Juniors" could go from knee length grey socks to white ankle socks.
"Seniors" from black tights to natural tights.

Even in Winter, jumpers and blazers weren't compulsory. We were allowed to determine our own temperature comfort, not have to ask a teacher if THEY thought I was too hot.

We're exactly the same age. My school clearly understood a degree of bodily autonomy that allowed pupils to take off excess clothes allowed us to study better and work harder. No kid sitting there sweating heavily is concentrating on Shakespeare or Science. Era has nothing to do with it, it's down to common sense.
And we were one of the top state schools academically so it clearly didn't hinder us.

And a couple of posts down unfortunately we see the 'iron fist' headteacher lauded for 'ruling with an iron fist' - and I've just come from a primary where the leadership were resolutely uninterested in what parents thought, and any suggestions/complaints/feedback were just as likely to result in a knee jerk rejection because someone had dared to question them.

@SleepingStandingUp we are allowed to not to come in blazers in extreme heat. Though the ward where I work is regularly over 30oC. That's far worse than school ever was!

@JassyRadlett Our school has suffered an exodus: from 2 classes of 30 pupils each we are now down to 1 class only of ca. 27 students - and this has happened in more than one year.

Part of it is to do with covid and with the work-from-anywhere delusion, part with kids leaving to go to private schools, but a lot of it is to do with the headteacher having a "my way or the highway" attitude. Not so much on uniforms, but on other things. The proof is that this is the only school in the area where so many kids have left.

Two kids left because they were constantly bullied. the parents complained that this was allowed to happen because playtime is completely unsupervised, and it doesn't happen in schools where playtime is even only moderately supervised.

One minority kid left because he was bullied by a group of kids of a different minority, and the head freaked out that whatever he would have done he'd have been accused of racism. The kid ended up having panic attacks and the parents were forced to move him to another school.

Another kid left because he found the classroom not challenging enough and the teachers mistook that for a lack of interest. He won a scholarship for an excellent private secondary, where he is now thriving.

I could go on. But it's a clear example of when ruling with another fist doesn't always lead to the best results.

Only if you've set the rules as "I'm the boss of your body".

If the rules are "blazers and jumpers must be X with Y logo blah blah blah and can be worn at students discretion" then you can stil have obedient children doing as you bid, but within reasonable parameters.

Expecting anyone to sit in long sleeved shirt and a blazer when it's 24°C outside isn't about respect. It's a power game. Look what I make them do and no one will stop me.

You working on a ward where there's poor ventilation / air con has nothing to do with schools tho. It's not a race to the bottom. We don't need to train kids up in case their manangagent is shit / poor etc.

Kids bodies run differently. I'd be sat there in a short sleeved blouse in summer and a school mate would have their jumper and blazer on
Telling me I had to swelter because the weather was hot but not extreme wouldn't have got the best out of me. Isn't that what schools are meant to be working towards, not unquestioning obedience to shit rules.

Gosh can you state where you are so I can avoid like the plague??

A head who rules with an iron fist, and who pushes out children of parents who dare to question his (her?) authority is neither a good boss or a good head.

That was like my school. We survived.

Surviving at school is a pretty low bar. 🙄 Can we not try to make children be comfortable? As a pp said, it’s not a race to the bottom but it certainly seems to be with many posters on mumsnet.

It's awful, but worth making your voice heard, all the same. That headteacher will certainly not be listening to staff.

We used to be allowed to wear short sleeved shirts in the summer term. Girls and boys. Seems sensible to me, cooler and still relatively smart. I'm ancient though!

I would love to know where all these jobs are in air conditioned premises; I run 2 jobs, one in healthcare and another in hospitality, both fucking boiling when it's like this. The closest I get to a uniform modification in my NHS role is leaving the top press stud of my dress open!
I don't understand how on the one hand parents are complaining about the cost of one set of uniform items, and then asking for a second set of items to be on the list for when it's warmer, for lets face it not that many days of the year. Granted it was warm for a few days in June, and it's been exceptionally warm for a few days since the schools started back, but on the whole I don't think we get sufficiently hot weather to justify a whole new uniform.
Having said that, I don't recognise the situations where pupils are refused permission to remove jumpers/blazers or whatever if the classroom environment is really too warm. Does this actually happen or is it a case of the actual situation being somewhat misconstrued by whichever child is telling the parent?