Secondary school - summer uniform?

[OneSugar1]

does your school have one and if so what’s it like?

our school doesn’t and I feel so sorry for the kids in this weather. Girls in thick kilt like skirts, boys in trousers, everyone in ties. They have to ask to take their blazers off and I don’t think permission is unreasonably withheld but not sure why permission is needed🤷‍♀️

Our secondary school can wear smart shorts all year if they want instead of trousers. Also they can wear short sleeve shirts

You have perfectly demonstrated my point that strident, undiplomatic parents risk alienating potential supporters and throwing rocks in their own path.

@parker231 I do believe that a reasonable dress code is sensible. Allowing kids to wear anything would just give one more reason for kids to be bullied and for social differences to be highlighted. Yes, all of that can still happen, but why provide more reasons for bullying etc?

But the dress code must be reasonable.

It must be weather appropriate, nay, lighter and heavier options should be permitted and it should be up to the kids to decide. Waiting for the head to decree when it's hot enough is sick.
At work I may go out to lunch wearing just a short polo while my colleagues wear long shirts and a midlayer on top - none of that is unprofessional, heat tolerance is subjective.

Items should be generic, available from anywhere, not from a specific supplier only, and headteachers shouldn't obsess about the exact shade of grey or the exact number of millimetres - to me that is always a sign of repressed, unhinged characters having a power trip and getting off with this display of authority. Let's not forget that every job which involves a degree of authority over other people can attract unhinged individuals - that's why the police should have checks and balances for that (which don't always work, sadly).

In my mind it would be something like: dark grey trousers, shorts or skirts, with long sleeved shirt or short-sleeved white shirts or polos (I'd get rid of the tie but know many disagree), and an optional navy jumper (no blazer). During the winter, dark-coloured coats with additional layers to be worn as needed (I trust we can all agree that the teachers in this case were mentally unstable https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/jesmond-park-academys-uniform-policy-26016890 )

Tights shouldn't be compulsory, at least not between May and October; the same for leather shoes: wearing leather shoes with thick socks in July can be torture.

Back in the distant past my secondary school had a separate summer uniform of a striped dress, much like the generic gingham ones that primary schools use now. I can only imagine my DD's horror if she'd been told to wear that to secondary!

You have perfectly demonstrated my point that schools will use all kinds of nonsense to justify their idiotic policies (cost? when Sainsbury sells 5 white shirts for £8 and 2 shorts for £10? Ebforcement? Again, do you check the right shade of grey with a colorimeter???) and that striking the right tone with authoritarian characters vomiting nonsense is never easy: too docile and you're eaten alive, too aggressive and they'll use it against you.

And if you really want to know why my blood boils so much:
I am totally in favour of rules and discipline. When my child was punished for something we thanked the teacher, told her we agreed the child's behaviour was unacceptable and it was important she saw a united front between school and family.

BUT nonsensical, capricious rules enforced with an iron fist will always be a red flag for me, because there is a high chance of having unhinged despotic individuals behind those rules. I have a friend who had a nervous breakdown because his boss never allowed him to go on holiday for more than 3 days; another one lost a stone and was having panic attacks for similar reasons, including the rule that someone had to be in the office during the entire Xmas break even though everyone knew it was totally unnecessary. I myself went through something similar (I don't want to get into details). So my blood boils so much because these nonsensical rules in school remind me of this nonsense at work and of all the mental and physical damage it causes.

Corporal punishment in British schools was banned only at the end of the '80s for state schools and at the end of the '90s for private ones. Think of that. Even in that case, there were plenty of 'experienced' teachers dismissing all the scientific evidence against it in light of their 'experience'. Oh, and when you talk about experience: most UK teachers will NOT have had experience of non-uniform schools, so what experience is that? They approve of the only system they have ever known?

@ParentOfOne - DT’s school didn’t have a code for non uniform. They all tended to wear jeans, trainers and hoodies and shorts and T-shirts in the warmer days. No bullying - most wore unbranded - no one was interested in what you wore. It wasn’t a novelty as it is in uniform schools when they have a non uniform day.
The majority of the world manages successfully without a school uniform, why not the UK?

The ‘rest of the world copes’ comment really does put paid to the ‘looks unprofessional’ argument. Besides which, being a schoolchild is not a profession.

That's an excellent question for the British "experienced" teachers and headteachers, who mostly have no experience of other systems so approve of the only system they have ever known!

I think a fetish for traditions and a subconscious desire to be different from the Continent played a huge part. It's odd, this country was at the forefront of some reforms (e.g. women's vote), it remains one of the most open countries in Europe for certain respects (being gay in the UK is probably much easier than in Poland Hungary or Italy), but it also remains stuck in previous centuries on so many things: that's why it banned corporal punishments in school so late, why we continue to have an unelected House of Lords, the medieval heritage of leasehold, etc.

I do think there is a lot of hyperbole with this topic. Summers in the U.K. do not get hot enough for it to be a major issue. I don’t agree with DC wearing PE kits etc.

The DC’s school allow jumpers to be left off in the summer term and otherwise the expectation is full uniform. If the temperature is above 25C, blazers can be removed at the discretion of the teacher if a particular classroom is exceptionally. That is a sensible policy.

Why should another person (teacher) decide if it’s warm enough to take off their blazer - everyone feels the heat differently. It’s just teachers enforcing their authority.

It's never going to happen. It was 29°c in my classroom on Friday. The students were struggling, there was no air. I'd had the door and windows open and the fan on since I arrived at 7.45am.

Teachers don't decide uniform policy. We just enforce it. I'm a teacher and I'd get rid of uniform altogether.

I'm not a fan of school uniforms, but I particularly hate the idea of forcing children to wear ties and blazers when it's 30 degrees and only allowing them to remove them with permission. In what sort of world is it ok to make children swelter unnecessarily in a heat wave when they're stuck in a non air conditioned building?!

The argument about preparing them for work doesn't make sense as the majority of workplaces have air conditioning, and people wear what they want in most offices nowadays anyway. Even hospitals allow staff to wear scrubs when it's hot and most have cool rooms, even if the wards are very warm.

My DC have left school now, but thankfully their school uniform was sensible - trousers or a skirt, with a polo shirt and sweatshirt (optional!) no tie, no blazer. On very hot days, they could wear PE kit.

@Parker231

It’s about discipline and respect. It ceases to be a uniform if DC are allowed to remove items at will. Of course if a particular classroom is exceptionally warm, DC should be able to remove blazers. However, that should be the exception in the U.K.

Wrong. On so many counts.

1. First of all, summers are getting warmer. In London alone, we have probably had at least 2 weeks in June and 1 in September of extreme heat this year. 2020 is the worst year I can remember, with many more weeks. And it will get worse. We are no longer talking about only a couple of days a year.

2. it is not only about outdoor temperature, but about the indoor one. There are many buildings, including certain school classes, in which it can be anything from 5 to 10C hotter inside than outside. Factors like being south-facing, being on the top floor, poor construction materials, poor ventilation, too much glass etc all contribute. So we may have 3 weeks where it's >30C outside, but 8 weeks where it's > 30C inside. It is illegal to transport live cattle at > 30C - why are children granted less protection than cows???

3. Why on earth should a teacher / headteacher decide when it's hot? Heat tolerance is hugely subjective. I once had a heatstroke during a summer wedding and almost fainted but the people around me didn't. Had you been a doctor, would you have dismissed me because other people were fine so surely it wasn't hot enough? This would not be tolerated in the workplace, why do we tolerate it in schools?? How would you feel if your boss had to decide when it's hot enough to ditch the blazer / tights etc?? Even if you want to believe the unfounded link between uniforms and behaviour, what is achieved by waiting for a teacher to decide when it's hot enough? What would be lost by allowing some children to wear long sleeves or jumpers, and some to wear short sleeves only? Can you please explain?

I bet you were wearing weather appropriate clothes but you expect your pupils to wear uncomfortable inappropriate clothing?

"Discipline and respect" when applies to something like school uniform always makes my hackles rise.

So you demand respect from the pupils but don’t give them the same?
Do you have to ask to remove your thick blazer equivalent when you’re warm?

Oh dear. No, I had to follow the dress code. I would have liked to wear something else.
Secondly, the uniform policy is nothing to do with me and I've already said I'd get rid of it.
I've already had a meeting with the head about the unworkable conditions for students in hot weather.

Me too. It's nonsense. My poor yr9s were unable to concentrate. Far better to be in shorts and tshirts.

5 secondary schools within 1 mile of me

1 all boys no summer uniform but does allow their students out in sports uniform
1 all boys no summer uniform and no leaving in Sports uniform. Does not have to use knitted jumper summer or winter. Blazer on unless permission not to
1 all girls school. Has summer uniform and short sleeves so options for the girls blazer can be on and off as needed
1 unisex no options for summer uniform and no leaving in Pe kit tie and blazer always on
1 unisex option for summer dress and short sleeves but tie has to be on for boys. No shorts allowed and no leaving in pe kit. They permit blazer off when hot if neatly folded and you look presentable (some.disbute what presentable looks like has been experiened)

I may disrespect my clients colleagues and bosses if I show up at work with flip flops and Speedos, but do I disrespect anyone if I simply feel hotter than other people and wear just a shirt when others are wearing a shirt and a puffy jacket? Or is the colleague who feels colder than me and wears a puffy jacket when I don't disrespecting anyone???

Not to mention most offices are air-conditioned, most schools aren't!!

Do you not accept that heat tolerance varies from person to person?

How do you think someone would feel if forced to wear clothes which are too hot or too warm for them? And why? In the name of discipline and respect???

Some schools allow a degree of choice. Is it disrespectful if some girls choose the skirt and some the trousers? My kids' school lets all pupils decide whether to wear a long-sleeved or short-sleeved shirt - is that disrespectful?

If a kid has to walk 20 minutes to school with a cardigan when it's 30C, and arrives all sweaty smelly red-faced and dehydrated, is that a professional look? Whom / what would he/she have respected this way????

You lot are all bonkers...

I agree, @ParentOfOne . We need more parents to complain more about this. Parental complaints tend to be listened to. Go for it.

@maireas I am lucky that the uniform policy at my kids' primary is reasonable and reasonably enforced. But the secondaries in the area seem much more unreasonable. I see some of the comments here and I despair. I truly despair.

Where is the evidence than a uniform which is inappropriate for the weather produces discipline and respect in pupils?

Do pupils in countries without a school uniform lack discipline and respect?