A good academic private girls/co-ed school with high proportion of state primary school intake in London, does it exist?

[LondonAutumn]

DD will be sitting 11+ exam this year. She is very academic from a state primary school in London. We are looking for academic independent schools that offer a broad intake in terms of means and social class. We want her to benefit from the private sector resources, but also not to completely lost the experience social diversity in her education. We are interested in London independent secondary schools that have a high percentage, say 50% or higher, of students from the maintained sector. We want to avoid schools that have a low state school intake. Is there any latest statistics on this for London schools? We are temporarily renting and can relocate as needed.

A good academic private girls/co-ed school with high proportion of state primary school intake, does it exist?

PH and WHS are not diverse in socioeconomic terms. If you see the costs of their paid clubs and activities including school trips and uniforms it does add up. A few bursaries percentage does not make it equal. City of London girls are more a diverse group as they travel from a wider area and JAGS.

@HawaiiWake I agree. PH has lots of add ons to their fees so it's actually in line with everywhere else when you factor in compulsory lunches etc.

Others have suggested already, but take a look at Emanuel and Latymer Upper. Both co-ed and both take a high percentage of state school children. In my view also seem more down to earth than some of the other SW London private schools. Appreciate that’s a subjective view. Latymer also has (I think) highest percentage of children on bursaries. Their website says they aim for 25% on bursaries.

25% on some form of bursary. Not 25% having all their fees paid by the school…

I have no beef with this particular school but implore people to use their brains to see through the waffly promotional bollocks. Why not say explicitly how many of your pupils qualify for full 100% scholarships, what the statistical relationship is between parental income and % bursary offered? That would be useful, honest information but few schools publish it. Why not?

Plus, a hugely significant barrier to diversity in independent schools is that very many of them are (highly) academically selective. By age 11/13, inequality is throughly baked in, and not because rich kids are naturally brighter, but because rich kids have more of the factors that make them likely to do well in entrance tests and interviews: high attaining parents, involved parents, disposable income for tutoring, money for extracurricular things like music tuition that poor folk can’t afford.

by all means go for private education if you can afford it and think it’s valuable, but don’t convince yourself it is in any way inclusive or diverse, with few exceptions it is categorically not - just own it 🤷‍♀️

I think the OP’s assumption that pupils from state schools are more diverse is flawed in the first place. Pick the school that suits your child.

a few supervising facts that many posters may not realise;

1. Private schools in the UK are more ethnically diverse than the general population of the UK
2. There are both middle class and wealthy brown people in the UK
3. Many brown people will sacrifice other luxuries to prioritise school fees, if they have wealth then opting for private school is a no brainer

Unsurprisingly 2 + 3 = 1 👆
The main driving factors are racism (private schools take it seriously and it is less accepted in the student body too) and education being valued very highly. Many parents are attempting to level the playing field in terms of career prospects and success for their non- white children.

Socioeconomic diversity is less varied at private schools, ranging from middle class to the very wealthy. Just like in society the very wealthy are a lower percentage and the middle class are the big majority. There are a sprinkling of less well off families via bursaries.

I don't think that (m)any of the London day schools are consistently outside the 20%-40% state primary kinda range. Nationally you'd only routinely expect less than 20% at a really expensive, often boarding, place.

40% sounds unlikely, or even 30%, in any London secondary indie where the fees on average (approx £20,000) are much higher and there are many more good state options.

We did the 11+ rounds few years back in SW London and asked the same question in about 10 schools in various open days. Most claimed around 20% at most, except for CLSG (~30%)

But these numbers vary year to year and not very reliable as schools don't aim to have a quota for state school intake.

My DC's indie (West London, girls, day) said at the time of admission that they expect about 20 to 25% from state schools. While in reality her year 7 group had no more than 10% from state primaries.

If socio economic diversity is a priority for you, London indies are not good options. High fees and lowish bursaries (~10% of revenue) ensure mostly families with very high income (than average) can send their DCs to these schools.

In haste - OP have you considered Sutton High School? Our daughter has had an offer there and I feel like the other parents were very down to earth and the student body seemed significantly more diverse (and reflective of London demographics) compared to the other girls schools we’ve seen.

This whole thread astonishes me.

If you want a child to have experience meeting poor people, send her to a state school. Poor people don’t go to private schools. There isn’t socio-economic diversity at private schools and everyone knows this.

haha :) probably nothing like that.

Some parents when sending their DC to private schools for the first time (from state primiries) worry that their DC will be surrounded by rich entitled brats disconnected from the 'real world', and may feel out of place in such a school.

Or worse, may turn into 'one of those children'. Knowing that a private school has a high share of state primary intake can be somewhat reassuring. (We were one such and we still worry)

But you are right of course, pretty much everyone sending DCs to such schools are easily from the top household income decile in the country, and perhaps in case of London even more so, maybe wthin top 5%.

OP has a valid point, there are private school and private schools.

OP didn't say she wants to send her DC to meet and experience with poor people as part of school life. Choosing private school means one has more open options to pick the school that suitable to their education needs. The kind of diversity environment is certainly part of it. Some private schools have more than 10% students on full bursaries.

In London more than 10% of the School age children go to private schools, this is significantly higher at South Kensington (nearly 50%), West and South West London (about 20-25%) - I think In MN this can be even higher.

The number of bursaries that schools offer may go down from the next academic year. When labour come into government, school fees are going up and many schools are looking into ways to make fees affordable - one way is to reduce or remove bursary places, as the bursary places are partly subsidised by fee paying students. So, it’s unpredictable atm how many bursaries schools will offer from next year.

OP - you are in an extremely privileged position to be able to choose to pay school fees comfortably and pick a school. It sounds like you’re sitting on the fence about how you feel about private education.

I know families who are ideologically against private schools but opt for private because they feel it will give their child the best education. They don’t tell themselves that the 2 - 5 kids in a cohort of 70 - 100 will bring a socioeconomically diverse lens to their child’s outlook.

I know well off families who send their children to state school. Private schools to them are fundamentally wrong and they don’t want to be part of it. Sometimes they have done very well themselves and went to a state school so they see it as a waste of money.

Then there are families who went to a private school themselves, are wealthy and private school is the default option.

I have met some well off families (usually white who had a loving and caring upbringing themselves) who agonise over whether they should send their children to a private school or not. I don’t think they would be happy with either a state school or a private school.

Too much choice can be a problem. Perhaps you need to think about how you feel about private schools in general.

Alleyns or JAGs

If you want diversity you should send her to a state school. Private schools are not diverse - because they only contain children who're the sort of kids who can get into private schools.

Unless that's not the type of diversity you want. 😒

If she's hard working and academic there are plenty of state secondaries in London where she should do extremely well.

Some thoughts in case useful

• there are many dimensions of diversity - socio-economic, race, religion, neurodiversity, etc. If the interest is to ensure exposure to the real world, surely they all matter. And whilst the representation of different economic strata will be skewed in all of them (it is, after all fee-paying for most of the attendees), there are different degrees depending on the school (see below), the record on the other fronts can be widely different depending on the school.
• attendance to state school is a rather blunt proxy for socio-economic background - plenty of examples in our area of people choosing state school so as to afford better holidays / second home / rental investment, then opting into private school for secondary (as they feel it matters more). As a result, you have DC in private secondary coming from state school with professional parents living in houses worth a couple of million (and a very wealthy income, including rental properties). Rather different to the case of a DC from a state school with working parents and able to attend thanks to a significant bursary.
• not all private schools are the same - location, fees, granting of bursaries and scholarships mean that some of them attract a more wealthy cohort (which, as stated above, may still be diverse on other dimensions). This ends up being self-perpetuating - on attendance to open days, visits, even offer holders days, it is human nature to consider the 'fit'...schools that are not very diverse attract a less diverse cohort. There is no substitute for visiting the school.

"As a result, you have DC in private secondary coming from state school with professional parents living in houses worth a couple of million (and a very wealthy income, including rental properties). Rather different to the case of a DC from a state school with working parents and able to attend thanks to a significant bursary."

This is disingenuous. My children's comprehensive is in a road where no house costs less than a million quid & the school has its fair share of children from professional families. But like EVERY non-selective state secondary school, including those in other well off areas, it also has its fair share of children from serious and multiple disadvantage, including low achieving poor children - a cohort who are ENTIRELY absent from private schools. Admittedly this is part of their attraction.

Only 1% of bursaries are 100% - meaning only a tiny, tiny percentage of children in private schools come from homes where parents are living on the lowest incomes. If those particular children are in private schools it means several things: that they are already high achieving and hard working, that they come from a household where the adults are highly ambitious for their children, and both willing and able to jump through the hoops involved in obtaining a subsidised place at a private school. Often these parents are themselves highly educated and extremely bright. The idea that this cohort is the same as the majority of children from low income families is deluded - these children and their families are exceptional.

If you want your child to have experience of mixing with children who are representative of wider society, don't send them to a private school - private schools are intended to provide a setting which shields children from social reality. That's why you won't find any child from a low income family in any mainstream private school who isn't already a high achiever/has some exceptional talent in sport/music etc. Private schools are INTENDED to be elitist, and it's a huge part of their appeal for parents.

Not sure why you would refer to my post as disingenuous, so would reassure you that the instances I referred to are actual cases that I am familiar with. At no point I said that was the norm, I merely stated that just using primary state school provenance is a very imperfect proxy for economic background - that is my reality in an areas were catchment areas have been on certain years as small as less than 400 m and the housing stock is pretty homogenous and only affordable for relatively wealthy individuals. And even less of a proxy for diversity more generally, which has many dimensions.

On your other points, you may notice that I make similar ones (and at no point claimed that the cohort between private and state are the same), albeit less stark. As always, personal experience inform our views, and they seem to be different for both of us - hopefully a good example of (respectful) diversity, in this case of thought.

Izimbra is completely correct here. Everyone who sends their children to private schools is doing this in the knowledge that they are shielding their children from socio-economic diversity (as in, their children will not study along side poor people). Most people who send their children to private schools are too embarrassed to admit this, which is why we get into absurd discussions about bursaries which make only the tiniest fraction of a difference. I don’t think there is anything wrong with sending children to private schools and I understand why people do it. I just wish they would own their choice and accept what it means for socio-economic diversity and stop lying to themselves.

Our local independent school is white. Almost 100% white. It’s a 2-18 all through school and the great majority is in it for the long haul.

My local comp gets great results. It’s a VERY middle class school. Motivated, highly educated and supportive parents. Average price house in our town is £900k. Still almost 100% white.

Independent school my children go to is very mixed. Almost 50% are from state schools but coming from the north London Islington / Hampstead/ St John’s Wood areas. Ethnic diversity is actually very good but let’s be honest - the demographic is still very wealthy middle class. It’s a much more expensive independent than my local one so that makes it less diverse surely? Despite ticking the more state school and ethnic diversity “boxes”.

Private schools are not diverse. State schools in expensive middle class areas are not diverse.

The biggest inequality in education is that your postcode “buys” you a better education in the state system. If all state education was equally good then more people would use it. The reality is that it isn’t.

JAGS.

JAGS and Alleyn’s, as per PPs

"State schools in expensive middle class areas are not diverse."

Most good secondary schools, particularly those in London, select using fair banding processes and sometimes lottery systems in an attempt to address 'selection by postcode'. This is how you can get a school like my son's in an area where every single house is £1 million + , which still has an intake of children from massive council estates, and many children on FSM.

"The biggest inequality in education is that your postcode “buys” you a better education in the state system."

That's nonsense.

The biggest inequality in education is that 7% of the best supported, brightest and most socially advantaged children attend schools which will have around 15K per child per year to invest in their learning.

The other 93% are taught in schools where the spend per head is approximately 7K per child per year.

In addition, the schools charging 15K a year ruthlessly exclude all the most difficult to teach children, and those exposed to multiple social disadvantages including homelessness, inadequate housing and severe poverty, thus protecting their privileged pupils from the inevitable damaging educational fallout that goes hand in hand with severe social marginalisation.

"The biggest inequality in education is that your postcode “buys” you a better education in the state system."

Some schools in my borough get brilliant 'value added' and have good OFSTEDs. They'll still be considered 'bad schools' because they're full of very poor, mainly low and middle achievers, and middle class parents avoid them like the plague.

We can't have a sensible conversation about the reality of education in this country if we refuse to acknowledge this.

@izimbra Outside of London there generally tends to be no banding. Where I live you get your catchment school. Literally living on one road or another dictates whether you go to the OFSTED outstanding one, or the one that requires improvement. You might get lucky with a low birth rate year or appeal but as a general rule you lump it.

The further north you get, the fewer outstanding and good schools there are (although there are many wonderful schools still). They often struggle to attract great teachers due to location and salary. So it’s all very well to talk about great London comps with deliberately engineered social intakes, but where there’s only one school you can go to and it’s crap, the odds are stacked against you.

It’s laughable that private schools are seen as the problem. The real problem is the state education system has been neglected and underfunded for many years. The outcomes from a school like St George’s in Harpenden (often touted as the top state school, where catchment is tiny, requires church attendance, priority given to feeder schools and house prices in excess of £1m) is VERY different to that at Oasis Academy in Sheppey

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/nov/28/dfe-failed-to-resource-changes-at-troubled-kent-school-says-charity-head-oasis-isle-of-sheppey

I mean, how is that the fault of the existence of private schools? Huge numbers of Harpenden parents choose St George’s over private schools (which they could well afford). It could hardly be less diverse if it tried, and probably less so then any private school.

Until all state schools are equal, levelling up cannot be achieved.