A good academic private girls/co-ed school with high proportion of state primary school intake in London, does it exist?

[LondonAutumn]

DD will be sitting 11+ exam this year. She is very academic from a state primary school in London. We are looking for academic independent schools that offer a broad intake in terms of means and social class. We want her to benefit from the private sector resources, but also not to completely lost the experience social diversity in her education. We are interested in London independent secondary schools that have a high percentage, say 50% or higher, of students from the maintained sector. We want to avoid schools that have a low state school intake. Is there any latest statistics on this for London schools? We are temporarily renting and can relocate as needed.

A good academic private girls/co-ed school with high proportion of state primary school intake, does it exist?

@DibbleDooDah this is exactly what I meant upthread. Not sure what the obsession with % state school is. A lot of state schools in the monied areas of N London are less diverse than the preps. It's cheaper to send to prep than buy in the catchment of these primaries.

@DibbleDooDah interesting to know what kind of school is, 50% even for a year group is very unusual for alluent area of London.

Not sure about other places but quite usual in N London! Not many good preps unless you live in Hampstead and the Muswell Hill/Crouch End lot all use private if they have the money and Latymer or APS doesn't happen.
The muswell hill state primary schools have some of the richest kids I've ever met. Not unusual for them to go to the Carribbean/other exotic place at Xmas, Skiing in Feb and Easter and whole summer in Corfu/Cornwall.

The school is just outside the M25 in Hertfordshire and has a lot of girls travelling there from north London. It’s not seen as an academic school in the true sense but takes a wide range of abilities and bright girls do extremely well there.

"the Muswell Hill/Crouch End lot all use private if they have the money and Latymer or APS doesn't happen."

I think this is partially true, I know that area well, but my point is even so wont make the local private senior 50% intake from secondary because the majority rich in Hampstead /Hihgate and adjacent area that went to junior and feeder prep will go to the same set of private senior too.

@DibbleDooDah thanks

My kids went to selective North London private schools from a very normal primary - requires improvement/good, 60% FSM, big pupil churn (eg lots of the middle class kids moved to privates or the country midway).

There were children from state primaries, a minority though, and what I found interesting is that I never met a single family where the children had gone to schools like ours. They all went to 'selective' in some way state primaries - either religious or the ones that famously people move next door to cheat by renting. You know the sorts - ones that have a weirdly low level of FSM compared to their neighbouring schools (Yerbury, Eleanor Palmer etc if you in North London). Always ofsted outstanding.

I don't know if these schools are 'better' and make children more likely to pass the 11+ or whether the parents who do state primaries/private secondaries are just the sort who won't contemplate a more bog standard primary school. I suspect the latter.

@Valleyofthedollymix yup that's the primaries. Coldfall, Tetherdown etc.

@PreplexJ No it won't make it 50% but I'm just trying to say that just because it isn't 50% doesn't make it not diverse. Obviously there has to be wealth to afford £23k in fees, but there's lots in state schools that can easily afford that. My point really is that % from state schools is not the deciding factor in school diversity.
I think it'll change a lot now that state schools are so underfunded though. If you can afford private most people will go down that route now. At the very least from 7+.

We chose to pay our DD to a private secondary school for various good reasons.

However, we are aware that private schools are more socially exclusive than state schools, which could limit DD’s exposure to different values and perspectives. We do not want DD to be in an environment where sizable of the families are wealthy and the tuition fee is a trivial expense for them. We also prefer an environment where the students have a more balanced and diverse educational background, who can appreciate and understand the differences in their previous schooling, rather than being dominated by only had prep school and private school kids. For example, I would feel uneasy if my child went to a school with only about 20% state school intake. Moreover, racial and cultural diversity is also a very important aspect for us being in London. We value a school that embraces social inclusion and offers a good number of bursaries to students.

We understand that some area wealthy families send their children to state primary schools and then switch to private secondary schools. However, we want to avoid the potential negative effects of private education as much as possible. The only objective way we can think of to measure this is by looking at the percentage of state school students and bursary students in each school. It is very hard to find a school in London that has more than 50% state primary school intake, which suggests that this is a good indicator itself.

We appreciate everyone’s input, as it helps us narrow down our list of schools to visit during the open days next months. We will also ask specific questions about this when we visit the schools.

@LondonAutumn , I think you will find
A) the dc already attending each school seem pretty much the same. If pupils (selected by the school) get up to speak at an open day event they always come from a range of primary schools.
B) you will see the same set of parents / dc attending open events at a range of schools
C) you will see the same set of parents / dc attending the exams / interviews at a range of schools .

There really isn't the economic / social diversity you are expecting. This is partly due to the admissions teams ensuring they take a range of pupils when they offer places.

depends where you are in London? JAGs in Dulwich is pretty diverse?

@LondonAutumn , sorry what I meant to add is that there is already social and economic diversity, there isn't a lot of difference between the schools.

The only school that provides what you're looking for is Christ's hospital. It may well be 'too' diverse for you.

However, we want to avoid the potential negative effects of private education as much as possible.

There is one incredibly easy way to achieve that aim entirely, which you’ve apparently discounted.

Yes, why not look at a good state school?

I think it's impossible to find a central London indie that is similar in student population diversity as London population.

Biggest barrier to diversity is > £20K (and rising every year) annual fee while London median wage remains around £33K (before tax). Most ethnic minority groups in UK on average earn less than the median.

Even the most financially well off, largest indies, spend no more than 10% of their annual revenue on bursaries (CLSG being the exception that I know of).

So it's inevitable that the student population will be one particular socio economic bubble. They live in similar houses, own similar gadgets, have similar vacations, wear similar clothes, have similar birthday parties and so on (with small variations, of course).

Like the OP, two years ago, we set out to find such a school and now accept that such a thing does not exist.

There are of course small variations within schools -- anecdotally, G&L or SHHS seemed much less diverse to me than CLSG, but the differences between the schools is insignificant compared to the differences between school population and the world outside.

So we just accept now that by sending DD to a selective indie, we have inadvertently created a bubble like social environment for her. Whether this changes her for the worse depends to some extent on her and on us.

It's a total non-sequitur. No independent schools (well maybe the very odd one or two) will have an economically diverse intake. There may be a few or even, say, a fifth on full bursaries in some very rare cases. The others will be from families who are financially privileged, or who have grandparents who are financially privileged. People who can afford independent school fees out of their own income, in London, and with 'normal' housing costs, are likely to be in the top income decile. You need to be able to find around £20,000 if you don't qualify for any bursary or scholarship, and once meals, uniform, and additional extra curricular activities are taken into account.

For comparison, across London as a whole, 26% of pupils are eligible for free school meals. That means that they have claimed universal credit at some point and probably been on a lowish income, and have protected entitlement, or if recent claimants, have an earned annual household income below £7,400 per annum after tax.

Independent schools are never going to be representative of the socio-economic diversity of London unless they set quotas by family income band. Ethnic diversity is just one aspect of diversity.

There are bubbles and bubbles, I think OP wants the latter.

Try ask the school directly with the question in open day: overall ratio of maintained vs private intake from Year 7 onwards, with and without sixth form. All good London independent school will have this statistics ready to answer otherwise they are not.

Yes you will see the same group of students taking exam across all these different schools, but in the end they will have to pick one. Academic aide, I think it is the intrinsic self-selection between the parents and school demographic lead to some schools has just 10-20% and some other shools has closer to 40%, and some schools are less diverse than others.

I think you are underestimating how unaffordable some state schools are.
I can afford a prep for my kids, but there are two state primaries (the two really good ones) nearby that I can’t afford. One is catholic and requires a certain number of hours per week help in school/church to get the recommendation from the priest, which means only one parent can work. Additionally the uniform is insanely expensive and substantial donations help as well.
The other one has a catchment with the cheapest house being in the 1 million range.
Both have (surprise!) excellent results with many kids going on to private secondary schools as parents are can easily afford it and didn’t need to pay fees in primary on top of that. Diversity is absolutely zero in both (100% white, wealthy, christian).

I think Whitgift and Trinity take a much higher proportion of bursary pupils and are much more ethnically and socially diverse, thanks to the Whitgift Foundation’s deep pockets. It was very obvious at the interview and open days. But of course those are boys, at least until sixth form. Not sure whether Old Palace of John Whitgift for girls is same?

Then the school is acting unlawfully, if what you describe is true.

That sounds highly unlikely for a state school. Are you describing the actual criteria or something you perceive?

@HeathrowQuestion its a faith school, so they can ask for “involvement in the church”, which means intense competition on how to do this best. The “donation” part is hearsay (might just be coincidence), but you definitely need to clean the church, help with reparation for mass, do flower arrangements etc on a weekly basis to be considered- not compatible with two full time earners (or a SAHP of young children!). Expensive area, so the one earner needs to be a top earner to live anywhere close. One form intake with sibling priority as well, so very, very hard to get in as its maybe 15 spaces or so per year. Its an excellent school, but comes at a price

It's really not highly unlikely. This is really not that uncommon in well off areas in London and it's exactly what I meant up thread. State schools aren't all the same and there's kids in preps precisely because they can't afford the good state.