Discipline in school

[Doggertydog]

I've noticed my dc school quite often use a kind of exagerated fear factor in doling out consequences for behaviour. I'm all for my dc being pulled up if their behaviour is out of line, and 100% support it, but I'm not sure I like their way of dealing with it. Hoping for some thoughts.

I don't want to out myself with too much detail, but dc behaviour at home and with friends etc is good, in fact we seem pretty lucky in that department! Just normal teen things really.

DS12 has been pulled up on some cheeky/rude behaviour at school and quite rightly so. However he was really upset and told me the teacher shouted at him (he actually said screamed) and told them to expect quite a severe punishment. I was expecting a call to be asked to go in tbh, and that there must have been more to what he had told me happened. But it turns out no more was said and he just got a detention, which is proportionate, so that's fine.

But is this a common tactic? To put the fear of god into them? We've experienced a bit of this with another dc too. Feels out of order but not sure quite how to handle. Doesn't seem a good way to gain respect for authority to me.

I wish I could say I'm surprised. I can bet many were quoting the DfE guidance and Equality Act, or saying their child was talked into it, or that others do it and weren't suspended. Innocent Johnny of course only vaped because he was pressured to, his ADHD makes him so so vulnerable, he has no idea what he's doing and by the looks of it neither does the school! The SLT just don't understand SEN.

It's incredible to me that some of these parents are willing to basically call their kids inept idiots right in front of them in these meetings. Of course we can't expect anything more from little Johnny. He's got ADHD! Meanwhile Johnny is listening to this thinking you know what, this isn't just a stupid teen mistake, I really must be an idiot, it's my ADHD I can't help it. His self esteem goes below ground, he refuses to help out at home, becomes an all around dick. Parental conclusion? Oh the school are awful, that suspension really ruined his confidence.

The same parents will talk about how vaping is a huge problem and schools aren't doing enough to stop it. Until it's your kid of course.

We had a boy who was actually selling cannabis on the premises. Caught, admitted it, clear cut.
His parents challenged the suspension and pulled out all the stops because of his SEN needs. Overturned.

It's insane and stories like this are the tip of the depressing iceberg.. I wonder how they'd feel if their vulnerable child buying weed in school. They find out actually the seller previously owned up, school know about him as he has been caught, but didn't get excluded. Wonder if they'd be happy with the school then. It's always inclusivity at all costs when it's your kid that's the twat. Not much understanding is extended to the school when it's the other way around.
I applaud you for sticking around for so long. I bet you're looking forward to the end now.

No, I'm carrying on! I like my subject and like young people and want the best for them. I'm not tired or jaded. My classes are mostly great, I try to get the best out of everyone. I'm old and stubborn enough to ignore the twatty parents, but engage and support those who want a dialogue. I teach some wonderful young people and think they deserve better than they get from an under funded service and some poor parenting.

Absolutely! I have taught many many children who struggle with behaviour, etc who have amazing parents who work with the school to help their child and I have seen these children flourish. Yes there are some crap teachers but there are a lot more crap parents!!

You're amazing. Sorry I just assumed you're close to retiring if you've been teaching for 40 years. It's brilliant teachers like you are sticking through it. I really appreciate you and I know many many parents do as well.

You sound amazing. Thank you for not giving up. I agree that there's more crap parents than teachers. For so many kids school is the only place where adults don't give up on them and have high expectations, I hope some will grow up different to their parents thanks to that.

So it was unlawful? Suspensions don’t just get overturned because parents send a strongly worded email to the school. You may not like it, but the law is there to protect vulnerable children from schools that want to just give up on them.

What may I not like?
It was appealed against.
I am quite aware, after 40 years, that vulnerable children need to be protected.

No. Not necessarily. Just because a suspension was overturned doesn't make the original decision unlawful. What about the kids he was selling to in school? Shouldn't they be protected?

Why else could it have been overturned?

Google it.

Google’s not giving me much other than the process not being followed properly, unlawful or unreasonable. So why the disgust about parents “pulling out all the stops” for their child with special educational needs? You complain about “twattish” parents but then don’t seem to like it when parents advocate for their children against a process that’s unlawful and/or unfair 🤷🏽‍♀️

Who's said they don't like parents advocating for their children?
That would be nonsensical.

@Mummerator There is advocating, and than there is twattish parents. Again, how would you feel if your vulnerable child was buying weed off someone at school?

His parents challenged the suspension and pulled out all the stops because of his SEN needs. Overturned.

Apologies, maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps you were congratulations the parents on successfully advocating for their child here?

You said "There's no detention in my DDs school for swearing at a teacher. That's an immediate 1-3 day suspension/fixed term exclusion.". If you didn't intend to say that the school was operating a blanket policy rather than properly considering each case on its own, clearly you phrased that incredibly badly, or indeed you simply said something you knew to be untrue. You can't blame other people for assuming you meant what you wrote.

Can I really safely assume that a child who is swearing at a teacher in this school will be suspended if, say, the child has Tourette's? Or if the school hasn't considered SEN and looked into putting extra support in place? Or if it hasn't tried lesser sanctions like detentions first?

Or is the reality that actually it does follow the law and therefore your statement was incorrect?

It's extremely difficult to get an exclusion decision overturned. For the independent review panel to quash it, they have to be satisfied that the decision was either unlawful or wholly irrational. Even then, the governors get to reconsider and could if they thought it appropriate reimpose an exclusion decision after rectifying whatever they got wrong first time around.

Therefore if an exclusion was wholly overturned, that suggests either that the child in question wasn't doing what he was accused of (bearing in mind that an admission by a child with SEN is in itself iffy) or the school messed up on following the relevant investigations, procedures and laws to such an extent that it made the head's findings completely unreliable.

He's 12, not 4. If he behaves like a little twat in a lesson, it's fine for him to be yelled at. It's hardly a birching, is it? (Shrugs)

"screamed"...from a child's point of view... usually means the teacher raised their voice/got a bit shouty. But apparently children are allowed to scream at you , like an eight year old (in the class I've just finished) does . And when I say scream, I mean it! More than once a day. And no amount of consequences makes any difference. God knows how much learning time for the rest of the class has been lost while we try to deal with it. And that,s just one child. There are others. So much time given over to sorting out problems only for parents to query or quibble the consequences. Either you want discipline/safeguarding in schools or you prefer them to work and play in chaos, where nobody ever gets told off/spoken to for anything. Saying "Make the right choices", or "This is your first/second/final warning", just does not cut it with some.
Then see what happens when they get to the world of work...