Discipline in school

[Doggertydog]

I've noticed my dc school quite often use a kind of exagerated fear factor in doling out consequences for behaviour. I'm all for my dc being pulled up if their behaviour is out of line, and 100% support it, but I'm not sure I like their way of dealing with it. Hoping for some thoughts.

I don't want to out myself with too much detail, but dc behaviour at home and with friends etc is good, in fact we seem pretty lucky in that department! Just normal teen things really.

DS12 has been pulled up on some cheeky/rude behaviour at school and quite rightly so. However he was really upset and told me the teacher shouted at him (he actually said screamed) and told them to expect quite a severe punishment. I was expecting a call to be asked to go in tbh, and that there must have been more to what he had told me happened. But it turns out no more was said and he just got a detention, which is proportionate, so that's fine.

But is this a common tactic? To put the fear of god into them? We've experienced a bit of this with another dc too. Feels out of order but not sure quite how to handle. Doesn't seem a good way to gain respect for authority to me.

He was told to expect a more severe sanction than a detention (so threatening worse than was reasonable). He was upset because he knew he deserved a sanction, but that he'd seen worse behaviour be responded to in a lighter way. But the sanction feels appropriate in the end. Not dismissing his behaviour or the sanction in any way. I know as a parent it's difficult sometimes to ensure the punishment fits the crime. I've just heard other incidences of this from other teachers in the school (telling kids to expect worse than is necessary) and wonder if this is some kind of policy that's thought effective, such as "flattening the grass" as was mentioned upthread.

He's sorry for his behaviour. He knows teachers are under a lot of pressure and that low level stuff is irritating and can push people's buttons and is going to try harder. He absolutely knows being rude is not on under any circumstances.

But I've never experienced him kicking back and questioning whether he can trust what they say, and that concerns me. I remember being told by a primary school teacher that they don't "tell off" children, but explain consequences and issue sanctions (which is a move on from when I was at school!). This sounded more like a telling off to me, and being threatened with fear of injustice, but I appreciate this is all from ds perspective. Until I speak to school I don't know the details.

But sometimes they need telling off!

He's not at primary school.

This sounded more like a telling off to me

A teacher telling off a badly-behaved child - absolutely outrageous!!

No wonder the country/society is in the state it is.

Are you suggesting that he shouldn't have been told off?

I'm another teacher who has experienced 'screaming' or 'shouting' as a description of something that is definitely not screaming.

I'd actually (perhaps wrongly) taken that as a new stance in all education and advice to parents too. And also in the work place - not to expect a "telling off" or to be shouted at. I always feel guilty if I come down too harsh and crossover into telling off or shout. I think we're all in a constant learning process in terms of effective discipline and righting errors of the past. I certainly am!

This is the right approach from school.

Contact them and say rather than threaten your ds with contact with home actually do it - then Ds will know they mean what they say and you can support them too.

Screamed has definitely changed in meaning. To me, screaming is what yiu hear in a horror film, or on a roller coaster. Teachers raise voices sometimes; it's part of the arsenal. I have never heard a teacher scream. I have, however, frequently heard teenagers using the word scream for a raised voice.

Should have said "right approach to take with school"

Be supportive but tell them it's no good making threats they don't follow through with.

That's behaviour management 101

Thank you @itsgettingweird that makes more sense to me. I'd much rather they had contacted me when this first started, we could perhaps have worked together and stopped it escalating. I don't want him being rude anymore than they do!

Let's imagine this scenario:

Teacher: Take your feet off the table, thank you.

Student: No, f off.

Teacher: That's unacceptable language (in my school that's straight to a detention).

Student: I don't give a shit. Who the f are you to tell me what to do.

By this point, the student is on their feet and others in the class are egging them on. The student is now shouting at me.

What I am then supposed to do? Have a fluffy conversation about why it's really not nice to use such words, and we all need to be kind?

I'll have a conversation during the detention, where like I did last week in that scenario, the young person told me they'd "talk to me nicely when I talked to them nicely".

Okay then.

@Doggertydog I think that the teacher may well have been caught up in the moment and threatened something that when he'd calmed down, didn't feel reasonable. As a parent this happens to me now and again but I have the time to apologise, move on and discuss it. I'd guess that the teacher realised that the crime didn't warrant the threat, or that he didn't have the time to follow through.

Whatever occurred, I do think you need to be mindful that your son disrupted not only his own learning but also that of possibly 29 others. He also reduced another human being to shouting, which in itself is inexcusable. I think rather than worrying about the teacher, you need to be concerned about your son's behaviour and getting to the bottom of why he is acting out in lessons.

Ok to summarise your posts:

DS was rude to teacher

Teacher told him off

Teacher said to expect a severe sanction (did they really use the word punishment…?)

DS was upset because he thought he would get more than a detention.

DS got a detention. DS did the detention.

You aren’t happy because the sanction was a detention and not anything more serious, so you think teacher was making an empty threat.

That’s about it?

It may be that your DS misinterpreted what the teacher said; or that the teacher was at the end of their tether; or that they had intended a more severe sanction but after discussion with a colleague decided it wasn’t necessary.

To be honest, it all seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup and you might be better focusing on what is going on with your DS - what is the reason for the change in his behaviour at school? Rudeness to teacher, lateness to school, not doing homework. Might be better to focus your attentions on that? Is he hanging around with different friends?

And if you really do feel that you aren’t happy with the school’s behaviour policy, then you could think about joining the school parent forum or similar to give your input.

To be honest, it all seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup and you might be better focusing on what is going on with your DS - what is the reason for the change in his behaviour at school? Rudeness to teacher, lateness to school, not doing homework. Might be better to focus your attentions on that? Is he hanging around with different friends?

Absolutely! Stop focusing on whether this is some massive plan on the part of teachers to threaten children and start focusing on why your child is misbehaving.

And at the risk of being an armchair psychologist - I may well be wrong, but do you think you are focusing so much on this one incident to avoid thinking about why DS is acting up / the other stuff going on at home?….

Did he actually ‘scream’ at him or just raise his voice?
I very rarely shout at a child but will raise my voice if necessary as most teachers I know do. Very rare nowadays for teachers to shout at children as it just doesn’t work most of the time.

Also, instead of complaining about the teacher maybe look to your child’s behaviour and sort that out. Most children do not get detentions! Out of the 30 children in my tutor group, only about 7 have had a detention for behaviour over the entire year. Most parents (I hope) would probably be horrified by how rude their children can be towards school staff!

Bloody hell, if I had a conversation with every parent whose child was rude or disruptive in my lessons I’d never sleep!!
Why are you so offended that your child got told off? They were obviously in the wrong and need to take some responsibility for their own behaviour, in this case accepting the detention and reflecting on why they received one in the first place (which is what you should be focussing on)!

Discipline isn’t shouting. Discipline is a process of teaching and guiding. Talk to them? Have a conversation. Find out what the root of the problem is? Explain why their behaviour isn’t OK, suggest more appropriate forms of communication they can work on, and dispense appropriate sanctions according to policy.

I didn't say shouting is discipline.

Sanctions for misbehaviour, clear expectations and consequences are discipline.

I agree.

Quite agree. I was commenting originally on the shouting.

@CherryBlossom321 are you seriously suggesting it is realistic for a teacher to stop teaching their lesson every single time a child is rude or misbehaving for a long discussion to get to the root of the reason for the child’s poor behaviour? Whilst the rest of the class has to sit and wait? How is that fair on the rest of the children they have to miss out on teaching whilst this happens?

Obviously any child who is repeatedly disruptive would be seen by pastoral / behavioural team in school to try to get to the bottom of it. But it’s simply unrealistic to think a teacher can do this every time a student misbehaves, they need to be told to stop doing whatever it is that is disruptive so that the lesson can continue.

And no point saying they could have a discussion after the lesson, most teachers have back to back lessons.

I'm still yet to see evidence that teachers hate pupils. I also disagree that shouting isn't sometimes needed. In a class of 30+ children, multiple restorative conversations are pie in the sky.

No, that isn’t what I’m suggesting 🙂

As you’ve pointed out, there are students who have involvement from pastoral, SLT, behavioural lead or SENDCO. And they can have those conversations. Removing a disruptive student into the hands of one of those teams is an option.

I agree that the student needs to be told to stop, I firmly disagree with shouting and/or screaming. It’s unhelpful.

I wasn’t going to suggest a discussion following the lesson, not sure why you were preempting that.

Because that’s what lots of schools insist teachers do and is part of the reason we are running out of teachers.