Discipline in school

[Doggertydog]

I've noticed my dc school quite often use a kind of exagerated fear factor in doling out consequences for behaviour. I'm all for my dc being pulled up if their behaviour is out of line, and 100% support it, but I'm not sure I like their way of dealing with it. Hoping for some thoughts.

I don't want to out myself with too much detail, but dc behaviour at home and with friends etc is good, in fact we seem pretty lucky in that department! Just normal teen things really.

DS12 has been pulled up on some cheeky/rude behaviour at school and quite rightly so. However he was really upset and told me the teacher shouted at him (he actually said screamed) and told them to expect quite a severe punishment. I was expecting a call to be asked to go in tbh, and that there must have been more to what he had told me happened. But it turns out no more was said and he just got a detention, which is proportionate, so that's fine.

But is this a common tactic? To put the fear of god into them? We've experienced a bit of this with another dc too. Feels out of order but not sure quite how to handle. Doesn't seem a good way to gain respect for authority to me.

I found this thread really frustrating to read. I love my students, love my school, and I plan to teach until I retire. But this attitude from parents just makes me so damn tired and sick of it all.

I will never understand why parents spend so much time trying to find fault with the school when their DC are rude and disrespectful to teachers and disrupt learning. I can only conclude that it’s easier to do that actually parent their DC and follow through on discipline at home.

I’ve never ever actually heard a teacher ‘scream’ at a pupil. I do not think it is common. It is more likely that the teacher spoke sternly or raised their voice if they were being ignored.

He also reduced another human being to shouting, which in itself is inexcusable.

staggering

Yes, your responses definitely are "staggering"

I totally agree. Sometimes I wish we could film lessons to show parents how their children actually behave!

I’ve thought this so many times.

Sorry, that was a response to @ladyvimes

Yup. How depressing.

There's no detention in my DDs school for swearing at a teacher. That's an immediate 1-3 day suspension/fixed term exclusion.

Any policy that imposes automatic exclusions is directly in breach of the DfE guidance and unlawful. It doesn't mean that pupils can't be excluded for this, but each incident has to be properly considered on a case by case basis.

From personal experience I'd take your child's version of events with a pinch of salt. Both my Dd and Dn were very selective with the true version of events when they were punished in school, I know we all want to believe our kids but let's be honest we don't actually know what their behaviour is like in school.

You honestly couldn't pay me enough to teach in a secondary school, we'd never dare speak to our teachers like kids do now and no, I'm not a teacher.

Well obviously it will be won't it. Frankly a lot of the laws don't offer anywhere near enough protection to teachers and kids, but favour the perpetrators.

I don't think shouting is great, if that is what happened. It makes the teacher look undignified and out of control. Ultimately that can lead to worse behaviour. From my own experiences of teaching EFL you may have to raise your voice slightly, but being driven to the point of shouting would really be death to your authority. Maybe you need to be clearer on whether it was actual shouting or not?

That isn't entirely correct.
Some behaviours are so bad that they can have a sanction of automatic suspension.

Simply not true. In each case the Headteacher has to make a decision based on the facts of the case, taking into account all the background factors set out in the DfE guidance, and in particular taking into account issues such as SEND and the school's duties under the Equality Act.

But of course that will happen. It's impossible to complete the paperwork without that. That doesn't change the fact that in many schools, swearing at a teacher will end up with the kid suspended. You're coming across as very pedantic, obviously no one is implying that an f off at a teacher results in that child being thrown out the front door within 5 seconds of uttering it. It feels like you're quoting law just so people know you know it. I think most people know you can't just automatically chuck a child out without reason and investigation.
However, when children are swearing at a teacher, in a derogatory way, than you can safely assume they will be suspended. Yes, after statements etc are taken.
My DD has an EHCP and has been suspended from this school for something that would be a permanent exclusion in many less strict schools. They aren't a horrible school and are understanding, however, rightfully protect their staff and other kids. I suspect this is a big reason why their staff is actually quite stable unlike some other local schools.

This.

When I tell a child off, they always say that I'm shouting at them. "Shouting at me" "screaming at me" is a short hand for getting told off or reprimanded in any way. The loudest voices in any school are those of the students.
Contact the teacher by email and initiate discussion.

@Kic I agree! This generation of teens are also obsessed with psych buzz words off tiktok. They're so aware of their rights but easily forget their responsibilities. It's incredibly frustrating as a lot of them have got the biggest victim syndrome ever. All the while they're actually the ones being assholes. I worry there's a generation of narcissistic being raised by social media. It used to just be vanity, now it's also manipulation with some weird American therapist talk.
My DD complained a teacher screamed at her so much she's traumatised which obviously made me concerned but the teacher called me to say she had been play fighting in the corridor with a friend, had been warned and stopped. As soon as the teacher turned their back in the corridor they resumed the playfight. That's when he raised his voice. Guess which part of the story I didn't get from her.

I'm not saying all teachers are innocent but I've learnt to leave my response when DD complains, until I know both sides, otherwise they end up making you look like a bit of a twat.

Oh, your poor little snowflake!
Try being a teacher -especially a supply teacher, and then come back and post !

You sound like a sensible parent, @Foxesandsquirrels - thank you!

I think it helps I worked in schools for 5 years and still visit as a dyslexia teacher. You often hear customer service staff wish they could force everyone to work in a customer facing role for a month, so they understand how tough it is. I wish the same for education. Even just for a day. I think it would open parents up to a LOT. Yes there are some twat teachers that shouldn't be in the classroom, but if parents don't stop this 'johnny doesn't do that' talk, they will have a lot more of those twat teachers. It's the good ones that leave, the twats stay!

A lot of kids do behave better at school than at home, so I understand why parents might be quick to believe them. Teens are brilliant at masking, esp girls, even those without SEN, but it baffles my why parents think their child isn't capable of dishing out to a teacher what they dish out to them at home.
I don't know what you teach, but thank you for persevering. I do think the majority of parents are still reasonable. Not sure what will happen when this lot have kids of their own though.

True, @Foxesandsquirrels - this is my 40th year in the secondary classroom. Many parents are like you, but a sizable minority do not support sanctions for their child, or are very permissive at home.
Some actually message me for help and support, or urge me to continue with firm boundaries because they're a bit overwhelmed.
There are threads on here about 14 year olds having sex or smoking weed and it's all "oh, they'd only do it behind my back" or "I don't want to be judgmental" or "they're neurodiverse".
It's tough, but teenagers need firm boundaries and strong guidance. Yes, I've had some idiot colleagues, but parents should still try to work with the situation.

I completely agree with you. I know they will figure out a way to do it if they really want to, but growing up in a home where my mum had that attitude, I know how unsafe it makes teens feel.
I think the 'they're neurodivergent' excuse is very very common at the moment. It's very sad because those parents are actually doing their kids a huge disservice and really instilling a victim mentality in their kids. The same kids who will have to work 3x as hard as their NT peers and need more resilience rather than less.

When my DD was suspended, a number of parents were disgusted with the school and suggested I appealed it. Imagine the horror on their face when I said that would be a bit silly seeing as I've already expressed my appreciation for the suspension. I can only imagine the paperwork required to suspend an EHCP child, it would be far easier to give her a slap on the wrist. The fact the school aren't expecting lower from her, and explained to her that she is able to and should be making the right choices, actually gave her a huge boost and she's doing really well now.

Absolutely. I have high expectations - everyone will do their best with learning, whether dyslexic, ADHD, refugee, living in a care home or whatever. It's about their future and too many are perpetual victims, facilitated by some parents.
Last week we suspended students for vaping. You wouldn't believe how hostile and challenging those parents were. If you allow your 14 year old to vape at home, nore fool you.