Discipline in school

[Doggertydog]

I've noticed my dc school quite often use a kind of exagerated fear factor in doling out consequences for behaviour. I'm all for my dc being pulled up if their behaviour is out of line, and 100% support it, but I'm not sure I like their way of dealing with it. Hoping for some thoughts.

I don't want to out myself with too much detail, but dc behaviour at home and with friends etc is good, in fact we seem pretty lucky in that department! Just normal teen things really.

DS12 has been pulled up on some cheeky/rude behaviour at school and quite rightly so. However he was really upset and told me the teacher shouted at him (he actually said screamed) and told them to expect quite a severe punishment. I was expecting a call to be asked to go in tbh, and that there must have been more to what he had told me happened. But it turns out no more was said and he just got a detention, which is proportionate, so that's fine.

But is this a common tactic? To put the fear of god into them? We've experienced a bit of this with another dc too. Feels out of order but not sure quite how to handle. Doesn't seem a good way to gain respect for authority to me.

He wasn't even asked to apologise to the person he was rude to, which feels all kinds of wrong!

A secondary school age child should be able to apologise when they have been rude without needing to be being asked to….it’s up to you to teach him manners OP, not the school.

Dear god, this thread. Another reason why teachers are leaving in droves.

OP, can I also ask what the consequences are at home for this behaviour? I assume you've imposed some sort of sanction or removed privileges until your son can prove he can behave at school?

If a 12yo needs to be asked to apologise, you know they don’t mean it

Are you sure the teacher shouted? I'm a teacher and am constantly being accused of shouting when I have just used a sharp tone at a normal volume level. All my colleagues are experiencing it, and ironically the kid d making the accusation are usually bellowing at us.
It seems to be a new post covid thing and is to do with traumatic events experienced by the children that are making them hypersensitive. I'm hoping it's a short lived phase as it's exasperating

I can agree with this. I have witnessed first-hand a teacher speaking sharply to a pupil about his behaviour and the pupil saying ‘don’t shout at me’ and the teacher was talking at a normal volume….. I don’t know if the children have a different definition of ‘shouting’ ?

This. With bells on.

The fact that you described his behaviour as cheeky/rude shows how you're minimising it. I'm a teacher and I love cheeky students but I detest rudeness.

Your son sounds like an irritant and you sound like you need to parent him and not make excuses for his poor behaviour.

accused of shouting when I have just used a sharp tone at a normal volume level

Totally agree with this.

Plus have you taught him he only needs to apologise when he's asked to do so?!

Some of the responses on this thread confirm my belief that a lot of teachers don’t actually like children at all.

When I was at secondary school I was in the worst tutor group of our year, whoever sorted the children into tutor groups that year somehow managed to find all the most badly behaved boys from all the local feeder schools and lump them all together into our tutor group! It was absolute chaos, we regularly had teachers running out of our classrooms in tears and refusing to teach us. We spent the whole of the first year on Full Class Report. Because of the behaviour of a handful of boys we missed out on so much of our education that first year, until finally the school took action and split the ringleaders up and moved them to different tutor groups. The only lessons we had where we actually learned anything were the ones where we had very strict (and sometimes scary!) teachers.

My daughter is about to start secondary school in september and it seems from our visits there that they are very strict about behaviour, lateness and uniform policy etc and I'm really glad. Why should the majority of a class miss out on education because of the behaviour of one or two "cheeky" children?

Please explain how.

I haven't seen that at all.

Discipline and high expectations to achieve their potential doesn't mean they hate children. I would argue it's the exact opposite.

Examples please?

I remember my teenager coming home from school and describing how teachers had "screamed" at students who were misbehaving.

A few days later she complained that her dad had "screamed" at her because of something she'd done. This time I'd actually been in the same room and can confirm that DH hadn't even raised his voice.

The new definition of "screamed" seems to be "said something I didn't agree with".

Your child sounds like an irritant.
Children who have been through trauma are hypersensitive. It’s exasperating.

How do we propose we discipline children/teenagers nowadays. That was common in my day 80's - early 90's
I am interested in hearing opinions and suggestions to how we go about it?

If i didn't like children then trust me I wouldn't teach because it's badly paid and exhausting. The thing I love is being in the classroom.

I just not overly keen on rude children who have to be asked to apologise and then complain to their parents when they're disciplined.

Just because I'm a teacher doesn't mean I'm completely immune to people being rude.

Thanks for all the replies. Honestly. Discipline is something I find difficult as it doesn’t come naturally. I didn't have the best examples growing up myself, thought we were doing okay. Am mortified by this tbh.

A few answers to pps questions...
-He apologised off his own back straight away to the person concerned (this wasn't checked or insisted on by the teacher who "screamed", which is my experience from school fwiw, but accept things have moved on and I have unrealistic expectations around this)
-He is having pocket money stopped until he shows consistent improvement.
-Things are difficult at home and he's being very good and lovely, but maybe it's spilling over in class and we need to keep better check. It's difficult when there are no behavioural issues at home to understand what's going on. (He's never been rude to me but can be a bit away with the fairies at times, which I know is frustrating and clearly we need to find better strategies). He is largely liked and gets good feedback that he's a nice kid.
-A detention was given, supported, and ultimately taken on the chin by ds, though he was distraught in thinking a more severe punishment was going to be issued than was fair and nearly didn't go in at all.

My query was more around whether there is a general belief in teaching that "over-threatening" of the punishment is a policy, acceptable and effective, or whether this was a teacher at the end of their tether.

I put up with astonishingly rude behaviour. The type of rudeness that businesses/modes of transport/GP surgeries have posters up about not being tolerated. But because I'm a teacher, apparently it's okay for a 14 year old to tell me to f off because I had an expectation he'd follow my instruction to take his feet of the table and hand over his mobile phone (this a very clear consequence of having it out). His mum's complained. Despite the fact this child tells me to f off almost daily his mum has complained about me sanctioning him.

Basic manners matter.

@madnessitellyou
Totally agree with your comments re awful behaviour from teenagers seen as being 'par for the course' yet would not be tolerated in any other environment. Then you have parents questioning when their rude child gets told off.... you couldn't make it up and @Mummerator clearly has no idea what she's talking about.

Mostly I see dedication from teachers and huge tolerance and being forced to accept poor behaviour to keep the lesson on track or be understanding to a child who cannot cope with the classroom. I'm embarrassed for people who think they can spout about it and actually would not cope for 5 mins with the poor behaviour in classrooms. Teachers need more back up and stronger options for discipline.

It sounds like a teacher at the end of their tether - but if you want to know exactly what type of behaviour warrants what type of sanctions, then check the school behaviour policy on their website, it will be clearly laid out.

I’m a bit confused about what you mean by ‘whether there is a general belief in teaching that over-threatening is a policy’ Teachers are individuals, they are not a homogenous entity, and will all have different teaching styles. However, they will be expected to sanction students in line with their school’s behaviour policy.

My personal experience is that my own DS is generally good and well-liked, but occasionally has misbehaved in class for which he has received a detention. He hates detentions and has tried to play the ‘I’m really upset about it’ card with me, which i don’t fall for. I tell him that actions have consequences and the best thing to do is apologise to the teacher, do the detention, and next time don’t do XYZ…..

So your son had already apologised. So why did you expect the teacher to tell him to apologise when this already happened?

What is over threatening?

My query was more around whether there is a general belief in teaching that "over-threatening" of the punishment is a policy

I don’t understand what you’re talking about here. Pulling them up sharp for being repeatedly rude is fine.