With Oxbridge taking less and less private school students, is it still worth it??

[SillySmart]

stats shows that the number of private educated students Oxbridge enrolled has dropped 1/3 in the past 5 years. Any thoughts?

In total numbers maybe, but they are not getting into the top universities anymore (UCL for example). Which is what this thread is about.

Most undergraduates age 18 on the degrees my children did at places like Bristol are mostly home students. That may be because none of my children wanted to go to London ( as we live here) or because it tends to be masters foreign students come for.

As for Oxbridge even for top students at Henrietta B (state) or a top selective private school there is a lot of luck in it and there may well be equally as good top pupils in the same class who simply don't get in - always been the case and always will be. It does not really matter. My 5 from private schools didn ot want to bother to make the extra effort to try Oxbridge (where I didn't try either although my siblings went). As I probably said above 4 of the children are now lawyers in London and the fact they don't have Oxbridge on the CV is probably not a big issue even in law firms which know plenty of good bright 18 year olds go to other universities.

This country loves to play class wars never is always too busy in fighting to see what is really going on.

And the irony is universities don’t check up on the elite education of overseas students.

I'm not disputing your point that the number of UK students has increased, but I may not be understanding your data. Recently, there have been fewer than 800,000 18 year olds per year in the UK. Are you sure your numbers don't refer to the total number of undergraduate students, not just the ones in the first year of courses?

The rise in international students is largely in the Post Grad category, at undergrad level across all universities, overseas students make up 15%.

The number of undergrad international students increased by 2.4% 2019/20 then decreased by 2.3% 20/21.

In contrast post grad enrolments rose by 80% between 2017/18 and 2020/21.

The proportion of overseas undergrad students is about 15%. Figures in the admissions report from Oxford show that 81.6% of undergrads are UK. These figures are comparable to the US Ivy League universities.

So at undergraduate level, overseas students remain in the minority and the numbers are not increasing significantly.

The value that overseas students bring to the economy are also worth considering - not just to the university budget but to the economy as a whole.

The proportion of overseas undergrad students in STEM courses is much higher in Oxbridge. I saw somewhere it is higher than 30%. Even more in UCL and IC (60%?)

@Xenia With respect, we are not discussing students, such as your sons, who do not wish (or do not wish to do the extra work) to apply to Oxbridge. That was their (and your) choice. Are we not thinking about young people who have worked extremely hard, because an Oxbridge application was their choice? We are talking about students who feel that the die was loaded against them. They will all, presumably, have excellent offers from St Andrews, Durham, UCL, Bristol etc and, at the end of the day, they will have very successful careers. Bur it does matter to them - enormously. No 18 year old desrves to feel that he or she is judged by the general population solely on his / her background, whether priviledged or underpriviledged.

Anecdatally, this is true of DS's cohort at Cambridge (he's reading engineering).

DS reckons about 25% overseas on his STEM course at Oxford. He says some of these students are seriously impressive, e.g. International Olympiad winners. If these universities are to maintain their world rankings then they do need to attract the very best International students. As do Yale, Harvard, Princeton, MIT where many talented British students go.

This.

In fact I don't think DS would have suited Oxbridge as it happens, not everyone at private school wants to be a master of the universe when they grow up.

He got the most fantastic opportunities and an extremely good education at his school that was worth every penny.

Apologies, you're absolutely correct - those figures are total numbers - I misread the comment about data being restricted to students in their first year of a course which applied to the graph below and not to the table.

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/students/where-from

There is a big debate over private schools and VAT but nothing, for example, about overseas students taking up limited medical training places.

The number of UK medical training places for both home and international students is capped by the UK government, since it makes up the shortfall on training costs (at least for UK students). Other factors include capacity for clinical placements and teaching staff.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9735/

@TonTonMacoute I couldn’t agree more - but it shouldn’t be an either/ or situation. The parents have chosen the type of education, not the child.

Hear hear!

There are options for British students in Europe which are cheaper than UK unis! People are just starting to realise this. For example, Germany offers virtually free tuition at uni level and many Swiss unis are far cheaper too. Get your children to learn German at school and do Duo Lingo from an early age. The German Government even offers heavily subsidised exchange programs in the summer. Pushy parents at our grammar schools are all starting to realise this kind of thing. Especially the Indian and Chinese parents who don’t want their DC to spend years repaying loans and just want them to do good science/tech degrees.

At the moment, UK Education Brand is still a big thing. That may quickly shift and when many of the Chinese/Indian students flock to other European countries, what then?
If you look at Germany, the international students are increasing there too. I wonder if they will try and get all the best ones?

Whatever Government we end up with long term, they should do everything they can to protect the UK Education Brand. Not sure what is happening now in state schools, VAT on private schools, pressure on unis, withdrawal of EU funding etc will help with any of that. The reputation can shift very quickly. It’s just part of a wider UK decline. I think our unis will have to start doing a US uni style begging people to leave them cash in their wills/big donations etc. I doubt standards at Oxbridge will ever drop though, there are just too many able students and not enough places. But I think for Harvard/Yale etc part of their appeal internationally is still that some rich posh US kids go there. So Oxbridge will have to keep letting some rich/posh kids in.

That last comment made me laugh. Harvard/Yale and so on are even more expensive than Oxford or Cambridge. The number of applications for Oxbridge is unlikely to drop down. They are still the very top in the worldwide university rankings. Oxford is no 3 and Cambridge is no 5 in rankings. In the first 10 is Imperial college and few other UK universities are in the top 20.

@Intergalacticcatharsis Rich/posh? I assume you mean equally talented and hardworking young people from independent schools?

@Intergalacticcatharsis - can you explain more about this? Aware British students can opt for American unis etc - but do many go to study in Europe? My kids are younger… but I have only ever known people to go to Irish or American universities from the UK x

@candleago - we certainly know quite a few that are going to Europe now. The ETH in Zurich is really competitive but sought after but I assume living costs in Switzerland are extortionate. I also know several going to Holland and Germany and many going back to France (but usually with 1 French parent).
I live in London so many people seem to have second or even third citizenships and many are now aspiring for their DC to go abroad to study, perhaps with a long term view to either gain international experience or actually settle elsewhere for a better quality of life. Ireland is another sought after destination.
American unis are really expensive. What I am seeing is people looking for less debt for their DC and better long term quality of life. However, I do not know the visa implications for those with no Irish citizenship. Most people I know made sure to get 2nd passports as soon as we left the EU.

No @Charlemagne38 - I meant rich and posh. The US preppie/UK Eton type thing. Whether you want to believe it or not, the reason UK is so sought after as a destination for Indian/Chinese students is not just the quality of education. A lot of it is about social kudos and mixing with your own connected Chinese/Indian but also as a gateway into some weird vague notion of old British society.

“They are still the very top in the worldwide university rankings. Oxford is no 3 and Cambridge is no 5 in rankings. In the first 10 is Imperial college and few other UK universities are in the top 20.”

People are now look at rankings per subject because it is all so expensive. UK and US unis are really expensive for international students. Other unis are upping their game to attract the same students.
Like I said, there are some really good unis in Switzerland, Germany, Belgium, France, Italy etc too, not just UK and US.

The people I know are looking at the whole package, weighing up debt, future employment prospects, quality of life etc.. If your child studies here and does well, they are already paying 9 per cent extra in tax on graduation, house prices are extortionate, so is childcare etc.
These are people who were not all born in the UK and have options and did the same themselves when they were young so it is only normal that they would explore other good options for their DC. There seems to be a bit of a consensus that staying in the UK longterm is no longer desirable. Political risk/pound tanking/terrible healthcare and other than good quality tertiary education, many people seem to now feel that way. So I guess if you make tertiary education more competitive for their kids or they even believe that to be the case, then they are off.

One of DC’s friends was talking about TUM in Munich (Technical University of Munich). I had never heard of this place but looked it up and it looks great.

I know you don’t have to be an EU citizen to study in Ireland if you are coming from the UK. Wonder if that’s the same for Germany/France/Switzerland?

I have studied in Poland and in the USA California. I know people who are studying in various countries. For a UK citizen it is not easier to study in Germany despite of the fact that a semester costs around £4 because of the visa requirements of around £10k solid in the bank per each year prior to commencing the studies. Whereas in UK they have grants, they can work while studying and supporting themselves and nobody asks them to show the bank statements prior to the studies

>Like I said, there are some really good unis in Switzerland, Germany, Belgium, France, Italy etc too, not just UK and US.

Somehow those universities are not in the rankings of any kind with the exception of a handful within top 100.
The magic of Oxbridge, top US universities is that it opens many door right from the start. People are keen on employing smart people who graduated from those Universities and not from.University of Baden Baden. Also the network of Oxbridge alumni is pretty impressive.

No, the healthcare is not better as an overall service than in other European countries. That is a myth. In other countries you pay load of money for prescriptions when you 60 and have hardly any money on a lean pension. One may get a slight discount with some diseases but here in UK all those people with these diseases have free medications. Also children have free medication, free dentist, free glasses. No, it is not like that Europe-wide. I am European, I know what I am talking about.

And things are changing. Even for dual citizens the fees will be higher soon as the requirements from 2026 are going to be that one has to be a resident to get discounted tution fees.

Germany's economy is in a serious troubles at the moment and anybody knows that who reads the news. The economic decline doesn't affect only UK but many many nations worldwide and the concept that UK is in decline and Europe iß great suggests that somebody has a significantly limited access to information.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2024/subject-ranking/life-sciences

“Somehow those universities are not in the rankings of any kind with the exception of a handful within top 100.”

What absolute nonsense. Loads of EU and EEA unis for tech/engineering and science. ETH Zurich is outstanding, for example. Uni Heidelberg etc - you can start trawling per subject.

“The magic of Oxbridge, top US universities is that it opens many door right from the start. People are keen on employing smart people who graduated from those Universities”

In London right now, amongst my large group of friends and colleagues, some with kids in state grammars, state comps, top private schools, many are looking at options in other countries. Especially if they have some ties there. This is simply the second wave of the Brexit exodus.

Having actually lived in France, Germany, Switzerland I am happy to attest that the healthcare there is significantly better and easier to access than in the UK.