GCSE Options - History or German?

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DD is chosing her options and can't make up her mind between History and German.

Apart from Maths, Science and English, she's doing RSPE, Music, French & German. But she's considering swapping one of the languages for History.

Trouble is, she really likes French but I think German will be more useful in the long run (thinking really far ahead, if she wants to work in Europe eventually!)
In her place, I'd do German and History. But I don't want to influence her too much because she loves French, and prefers it to German.

The annoying thing is, initially Music was just her 'reserve' choice but now she's firmly decided on it, so either German/French or History will need to be bumped off the list. She already plays two instruments and working with groups should be good for her personal development - if hard (has ASC, so not a 'fun' subject as such IYSWIM).

Any opinions on what would be best? Workload, prospects, difficulty, usefulness of specific languages... anything you can tell me would help. She's going mad & driving us mad trying to decide!

Phos , thank you for your perspective.

I am leaning towards your view, you are not the only poster to suggest that. Except it would open a can of worms and create further confustion for DD at a time wher she really doesn't need it. Oh, what fun!

I’d say history and German - with one Romance language ie Spanish then French structure is easier to grasp. German is a good introduction to inflected languages so if DD is interested in studying languages further, it’s useful.
History is a good hard subject and it’s main use is in showing you can digest lots of material, analyse it and argue.

But also worth looking at spread of subjects that she finds hard or easier. It is good to have at least one that she’ll find an easy ride. Can she collect a Spanish GSCE along the way without much effort?

Thank you lanadelgrey, that's a likely combo at the moment.
This is actually her second year doing German, so at least she has a grasp of the basic grammatical concepts already, whether she continues or not.

And yes, she can pick up an extra Spanish GCSE, but as an external candidate. That means some extra work out of school, which she'll see as an extra load, but it should be easy. I think we'll have to resist the HoD's gentle push to really prepare hard so she can get a 9++ or whatever. I'm sure it looks good for the school, but DD can do with at least one easy ride.

I did History, German and English lit which were a good combination for my law degree (not that you have to have those for law but they were fairly wise - as languages can be useful and essay topics like history and english lit go quite well for a law degree).

If she prefer French to German do French. It is equally as useful and one of my siblings did French and I did German. It hasn't made any difference to career prospects. Either are fine and are traditional harder facilitating subjects for university of which it is wise to have 2 even if a third is not what used to be called a facilitating subject.

One of my sons did music but just to AS level - he had a music scholarship and was music prefect so quite musical (as in his day you did 4 in lower sixth to AS exams and then dropped one for upper sixth so he kept on economics (in addition to history and geog) and dorpped music after AS level. I don't think schools do AS levels now though.

Music is fine combined with say History and French.

Personally I would favour History. I feel that language GCSE's aren't really fair: you are competing for the top grades against people who are bilingual or with German parents or who spend every holiday in their German holiday home.

I also think there is a shortage of good German teachers, whereas there are lots of great History teachers out there.

It absolutely is not useless. It's good for understanding politics and future planning in various issues. It's also a good foundation for critical thinking.

Our inability to value this makes my blood boil.

Thank you Xenia, you're not the first one to mention law. Not sure that would be up DD's street, but you never know. Keep her options open, I guess.

I think she may end up doing French, she does like it a lot.
We'll see what she decides about Music, but it's beginning to sound like not such a great option. And a bigger workload than expected.

Thanks mellicauli. I don't see education as competition, I'd simply like DD to learn stuff, and a couple of languages would be great - and hopefully useful in life. But I take your point the scarcity of German teachers, which was also mentioned by PP.

RedToothBrush , I think we are on the same wavelength on that. So much that would be different if people paid attention to history. And for that you have to teach them to children first.

I did French and German GCSE (and further) and picked up two other languages to around B level at sixth form and university.

Like your daughter, I preferred French, in fact I wanted to do History and French A Level but couldn't due to the options boxes. I loved History GCSE. But I also loved French and didn't want to give it up.

Anyway, I ended up choosing German which was in the same box as History, partly influenced by my linguist mother 😉 I did not do as well as I might have, had I done a combination I was more passionate about.

My point being, I would let her do whatever she wants to do as it might backfire later on.

Thank you DorritLittle, that sounds very much like DD's situation, very helpful to hear. The whole options boxes thing is another matter! Sorry you didn't do as well as you could have, but hopefully you did well enough. That's us horrible linguist mothers for you! 😉But you obvioulsy have a talent for and enjoy languages.

I think I am now feeling much happier with DD doing French if she likes.
Now it's Music I'm concerned about. The fun never ends!

The logical combo should be French and History, then Music as a reserve (in case the 'boxes' don't match). So really, the choice now is between History or Music. See what DD thinks. Will sound her out gently tonight or tomorrow.

Now it's Music I'm concerned about. The fun never ends!
If she enjoys music, and will continue with her instruments as an extracurricular activity, then this may preserve music as an enjoyment/hobby for her without the pressure of it being a chore/work.

I'll just add on the language side.

Like your DC I was fluent in one language (French) as well as English, so did French and also Spanish at GCSE (so the potential opposite of your DC). I did French A-Level also. Some people have said you can't remember much etc but many years on I can still speak a bit of Spanish, can have some conversations with my wife's Spanish family when we go to Spain (though not when they all talk together....and even used it for work to break the ice with Spanish clients we had (most was done in English but it helped).

The other thing I would say is that I found Spanish relatively easy (I assume based on my french) and having some 'easier' GCSEs is probably no bad thing. especially if you take history which I think is probably quite heave essay writing etc (that is a guess).

I would say I found it really useful, and I got 2 of my roles through my ability to speak French as we had international clients.

For the German side, my last company we had German clients who insisted on speaking to us in German most of the time, even though very often their english was excellent. A GCSE would not have done, we needed fluent speakers. A accept this is very anectodal evidence!

Lasly I wish I had done history, though I guess it does depend on the curriculum.

Good luck, I'm sure they will be fine whatever you / they decide, all good choices!

I would let her choose. German is a much harder language to learn than French. Most Germans speak good English. And it woukd take years and years of study lo learn German to a good enough standard to be of any use commercially.

I would let her choose. German is a much harder language to learn than French.
This is subjective. I find German much easier than French. Although French tends to be taught from an earlier age in the UK, which does give an advantage.

I'd missed the bit about Spanish. For practical purposes, GCSEs and A-Levels in languages are fare less useful than a good CEFR grade. If her Spanish is already good or fluent then taking the suitable CEFR assessment gives the qualification required for living or working in that language.

I applaud that lovely thought. But when it comes to university places it is a competition and one where every GCSE grade counts. I am pretty sure my son's 7 in GCSE German would be why he got rejected from Bristol Engineering degree. He had 3A* prediction and a respectable collection of 8's & 9's apart from that.

Good point, thank you DogInATent.

Thank you, LondonHOPDad . That's my reasoning - that if you are good at langauges, once you studied some there'll always be something there. If it needs to be rekindled, it's so much easier than starting from scratch. So that would apply to German too (if she ever needed it professionally).

Also, as you point out, it makes a huge difference when the other person even tries to speak the other's language. A little bit goes a long way.

Thank you Viviennemary . Mastering any language takes years of study, and I don't think she's finding German particularly difficult. As DogInATent says, it depends. By the way, Dog, I'd never heard of the CEFR assessment, thanks for that!

Thanks for the applause mellicauli 😊. But I really meant it, I want her to learn . Yes, I am naïve, we have a house full of that! At the end of the day, a GCSE is 'only' a GCSE. But having some knowledge of a language, good grade or not, will open doors. But yes, I agree that languages are tough. But then not really valued, or financially rewarded. It's a conundrum.

By the way, Dog, I'd never heard of the CEFR assessment, thanks for that!
Part of my Brexit preparations was converting my basic German into a CEFR A2 certificate. It was part of a potential exit plan. Once you're aware of it, it makes you wonder why schools that are strong on languages don't make it part of their offer.

I do know how you feel though OP because I was pretty gutted that DD's choice of secondary only taught one language at GCSE. It felt all wrong after my own options which I now realise I was lucky to have. The good thing is, your daughter will have two anyway being fluent in spanish - what a gift! And these days, you can do German ab initio. Also, don't forget the wonderful Geothe Institut if your daughter later regrets not taking German. Two family members became CEFR-grade fluent via that route post 18. (One of them was extremely post-18!).

Well who knew, two of you - DogInATent and DorritLittle - now mentioninng the CEFR. I must have been away with the fairies! Although now at the mention of brexit it does ring the bell (probably blanked it out)

Thanks for the encouragement Dorrit. I know we are very lucky to have two languages on offer. We specifically chose the school because of that (and because they didn't do Spanish. In fact, we were planning to move towards the end of primary and rejected a great house because it was very close to a school that only did Spanish, that would have been a waste). Which, if I am honest, is another reason why it feels off to abandon German... But that's not DD's concern, and we knew she could hate it, be terrible at it, or just not like it.

"Can I ask, how are you steering away your autistic DC from certain subjects? DD reached burnout in year 8 (just awful) and the very suggestion that you may think she's not up to something would feel like a huge blow, so we need to be careful."

You've been so polite responding to everyone individually OP, so I am doing the same to you.

We have encouraged towards subjects we think are a better fit, or talked around feelings rather than grades. Eg with music, practical exams have been pretty horrific for DS and he is adamant he is never doing another one. I can be concerned about how he'd feel putting himself through multiple performances without questioning his ability. With history he dislikes the "why" questions and finds it hard to give enough reasons. We haven't had a big conversation about his limitations, we just kind of went "yeah all those "why's" are a bit frustrating aren't they... ooh look this other subject sounds fun!". Very light touch.

I am open to the criticism that I'm holding him back, wrapping him up in cotton wool etc. I'll happily hold my hand up to that and defend that decision to him when he's older. He's what's important, far more so than whether he gets his EBacc or whether his list of GCSEs looks very slightly more balanced.

What I don't know is how much more or less work German would be relative to History, for your daughter personally. But no one can ever make GCSE choices based on perfect info, it's just not possible. You have put a lot more analysis into this than most of us do and I imagine you are in a really good position to give the best advice anyone could to her.

This thread has been an interesting read. Our school doesn’t offer German and my dd was really keen to study the language. So she is studying German at home with workbooks and we decided to pay for an online course with the Goethe institute. She’s doing gcse Spanish at school and is enjoying that too, and history incidentally (yr10). She wants to go to university in Germany so that’s the driver for her.

My other dd is in Yr11 and took French gcse because she loves the language and history. She is aiming for a joint honours history degree with French after gap year in France.

I’ve just encouraged them to do what they loved. Good luck with it all.

I think looking to a future career or at least degree is quite important as the A levels decide what degree subject in some (not all) cases. Eg 2 of my children did geography BSc at university and their A levels fit with that. Another 3 did ancient history so history, english lit and classical civilisation were good A levels for that.

My son who gave up music after AS level (rather sadly as he liked it and left the only other boy doing it in a class of one) was glad he picked economics to continue to upper sixth. Economics is quite a well regarded A level and quite useful and one you don't do at GCSE although that is a bit of a curved ball on the thread.

I think History, French and Music would be a good combination if she definitely wants to do a language and can get a high grade in it.

And what you pick up from films isn't necessarily history, either.