GCSE Options - History or German?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is chosing her options and can't make up her mind between History and German.

Apart from Maths, Science and English, she's doing RSPE, Music, French & German. But she's considering swapping one of the languages for History.

Trouble is, she really likes French but I think German will be more useful in the long run (thinking really far ahead, if she wants to work in Europe eventually!)
In her place, I'd do German and History. But I don't want to influence her too much because she loves French, and prefers it to German.

The annoying thing is, initially Music was just her 'reserve' choice but now she's firmly decided on it, so either German/French or History will need to be bumped off the list. She already plays two instruments and working with groups should be good for her personal development - if hard (has ASC, so not a 'fun' subject as such IYSWIM).

Any opinions on what would be best? Workload, prospects, difficulty, usefulness of specific languages... anything you can tell me would help. She's going mad & driving us mad trying to decide!

@stickygotstuck - fair enough! It just makes it easier, but not mandatory. Choices should really be decided to give a spread of A levels. I hope your DD makes choices that engage her mind the best.

Thank you Livinginanotherworld.
I know Mandarin would be the way to go. However, school don't offer it and we don't want to overload DD with extra curriculars. So the choice is between French and German, really.

@LexMitior , thanks! You never know, she may turn around in a year or two and declare she really wants to be a barrister!

History all the way.

I’ve worked with Germans for years and visited for meetings many times. I can’t think of a single time when GCSE level German would have been useful.

Lots of lawyers also do languages over history, I am saying that as a lawyer. Let her choose what she liked most and will do best in! If she likes music and languages let her do that! She is already doing one social science which is enough.

I have in fact just been through something similar with my niece. She was thinking of doing IGCSE history vs geography and in the end, having looked at the syllabus and the short form answers required, she just found geography more interesting. That may be specific to her own school but what was on the history syllabus did not inspire her! So she is going to do 2 modern languages and music instead. She plays 2 instruments and sings to an incredibly high standard but because she is at private school there seem to be others also at a high standard still taking the GCSE.
Your DD sounds like she is talented in modern languages and bilingual already so I would embrace her interests and talents all the way.

Thanks MadamAndTheAnts - love the name!

Thank you Aleaiactaest, that's good to know. She likes both languages and History, that's why the choice has come down to 'usefulness'. Which is subjective depending on personal experience, isn't it?

I strongly disagree. History teaching/exams have changed a lot. It's no longer all amount memorising dates and facts etc. It's now about understanding why things happened, consequences, critical thinking, reasoning/logic, etc.

I think that's far more valuable than learning two MFLs.

Yes, it was this summer (2022).

Don't get me wrong, she did have to work pretty hard but I was surprised at how prescribed and narrowly focussed it seemed to be, but I'm not a linguist in any way so perhaps that is how it should be. The speaking exam in particular - they memorised their speech, the questions they might be asked and the answers they would give. That said, I'm not sure how much of that might have been the Covid mitigations that were in place.

But she did get a 9 and I shouldn't take away from that. 😀

Aleaiactaest, sorry cross posted, just seen your post about your niece. Similar with DD's state school - the History topics are very narrow, no world history at all (unless you count the US, which I don't), the only saving grace being perhaps history of Medicine, which should take them to different countries and cultures. Sounds like DD might be going the same route as your niece - minus the singing!

I agree -rationally- about following her talents and interests. But that's what I did and I am not so sure it was the right choice... 😩

Thank you Kazzyhoward , I agree that History is valuable. But then, I also think two languages are - you never know what they can lead to.

Thanks for responding DontMakeMeShushYou . Yes, that's what I found the oddest thing, the memorising of the speeches. Do they still do that? You know what, I am beginning to think that I am a bit naïve about how well languages are taught here. A friend said this to me a while back and she may have been right 🤔. But equally I am sure your DD worked very hard. In fact, DD's German teacher was very pleased to hear she was considering doing 2 languages at GCSE but did warn that the workload would be a challenge (and this coming from the teacher of a subject very keen to attract candidates).

Why do you think German and bit french if that's her favoured subject ? She should just choose which she enjoys

The history of medicine is a great topic at that level. You get the entire history of western civilisation through that lens. It gives kids an introduction to the history of all the major mentalities across 5000 years.

History is also about teaching how to think - critically evaluating sources and arguments.

And many aspects of ‘British’ history taught have world dimensions to them.

Wow @DontMakeMeShushYou that’s poor. If they had to make a speech I am presuming not AQA with which I am most familiar. But I think it’s not great if the teacher/examiner prepares all the questions with the student – and the board says it doesn’t want people to do that – this is a quote from the examiner report on the 2019 exams:

“In last year’s report, attention was drawn to the need for teacher-examiners to employ a questioning technique through which students are clearly able to demonstrate spontaneity. There were signs of improvement here and more tests were conducted in such a way that the conversation had a pleasing feel of authenticity. However, many performances continue to be dominated by pre-learnt responses where the teacher-examiner allows long monologues before asking the next question on the list. This was particularly frustrating in the case of confident students whose language skills were such that they would have had no problem in responding to meaningful interventions and follow up questions.”

AQA speaking involves a role play and a photocard, both of which can only be prepped on the day, in a few minutes immediately before the exam, and both of which involve an unknown question even then; and then general conversation – which (see above) should include some element of spontaneity. Students can choose one topic and so will most likely learn some questions and answers there, but the other topic depends on which photocard they get and so unless they learn a screed of answers for two other topics (one lot of which they will not need) there will be some element of unknown here too. I used to give students a booklet of suggested questions but certainly never told them which specific questions I would be asking. Sigh.

Not in any way having a go at your DD btw @DontMakeMeShushYou - a 9 is great for sure!

@clary - AQA speaking involves a role play and a photocard, both of which can only be prepped on the day, in a few minutes immediately before the exam, and both of which involve an unknown question even then; and then general conversation – which (see above) should include some element of spontaneity.

That's very interesting to read. Exactly that is how Cambridge English Proficiency exams were many moons ago, wihich I assumed was similar for other languages too.

MadamAndTheAnts thanks for the encouragement. That bit did sound good. The rest, not so much.

Thanks maddy68 , she enjoys all three (French, German and History) but needs to bump one off.

History over German. Much better to have a humanity than a second language in my opinion, especially as she prefers French.

If she ends up bumping one language, she should absolutely just go with doing the language she prefers. It is impossible to say which language might be most or least useful, and it's a bit of a pointless debate anyway, putting the cart before the horse - you choose your language and then you later choose job opportunities for that language (if you want to).

I can't really comment on whether she should do two languages or one plus history. I'm a languages teacher, did 3 languagescat A Level and hated history . But it's good for critical thinking and writing skills!

In fact, DD's German teacher was very pleased to hear she was considering doing 2 languages at GCSE but did warn that the workload would be a challenge (and this coming from the teacher of a subject very keen to attract candidates).

I'm surprised to hear that tbh. The longest piece of writing you ever have to do at languages GCSE is 150 words. The skills and exam format are identical for the different languages, which means less learning how to be good at the exam if you're doing two languages. I'd have thought history was was way more workload-heavy.

I'm a Head of Geography and frequently have discussions with students about their GCSE option choices.

1. From the discussions that have taken place in my school I would say take French over German. German seems to disappearing from the curriculum gradually in many schools because there isn't the need to speak it as much any more.

1. Students tend to work harder towards subjects that they enjoy therefore it sounds like French would be the best option in terms of her grades. The students who are strongly encouraged by others to take subjects that they don't wish to do generally don't perform as well. I use this argument frequently with students choosing the same subjects as their friends.

1. I would strongly recommend that your daughter chooses History (or Geography if she changes her mind). History has a wide variety of transferable skills that will be useful for university degrees or in careers in the future. It will also support he in the analysis of texts etc in English. They use similar skills. I would recommend that she finds out more about the History topics that will be studied. There are so many options for schools that are usually based on the strengths of the teachers. In my school they teach the history of medicine, Elizabethan England and something linked to Hitler (I can't remember the topic name) whereas at my friend's school she teaches American west. So very different history.

I hope she reaches a decision.

Thanks Wannakisstheteacher . She already has a humanity - RS, so it's really a matter of two humanities or two languages.

Thanks Fairislefandango. I am guessing the teacher meant there is a lot to learn and retain - all the vocab, all the verb conjugations, and all German declensions. Plus exceptions, plus not getting confused between the two languages as you acquire them. Just learning and remembering new vocabulary takes a lot of effort.

I know what you mean about putting the cart before the horse. But all things being equal, you might as well go for the one that is more likely to be more useful.

Which brings me to niclw 's comment - thank you. German really is disappearing from the curriculum. But in a way, all the more reason to do it. There'll be plenty of French graduates, not so many German ones. I mean, who is going to be doing all the spying, secret servicing, etc? 😉

She knows the topis in her school - she likes one of the three. But she may want to do History A level. She did consider Geography initially, but I got a very firm no when I suggested it recently.

As a PP said - History has many transferable skills. I would think less about the topics ( eg is it world history ) and more about is it a topic where critical thinking and writing a decent essay is required. I know I am aching other posters here.

( Caveat I know nothing of geography )

I do think if you have one language under your belt and then two - it is easier to pick up a third on your own. My school did German first and then French - many years ago . If she is doing 2 sciences - in a very probably ham fisted way - I think German is easier to pick up - just very very logical ( clearly need vocabulary ) but once you get over the first hurdle I think German is actually easier to do on your own. I may be wrong. But sentence structure etc is not hard for a logical person )

I am not sure you can go far wrong - My DS did History at A level without GCSE

Btw @stickygotstuck meant to say, RS fine for uni - once you have English and maths, unis are not too fussed about specific subjects at GCSE as a rule (exceptions apply such as an MFL for those wanting to study classics).

Agree btw that German's disappearance is maybe even more of a reason to take it. Tho if you plan to be a teacher you may find it hard to find a school).

What are your judgement criteria for history and why? What experience do you have of the subject!

Just trying to provide a relevant answer, not judging.

History gcse may have some interesting topics but at DC school they weren't allowed to choose which they studied for the exam.
Interesting that on this thread rs doesn't seem to be considered that valuable.
Imo rs GCSE topics more relevant than history and much broader . Also need to be able to analyse and write essays.

I'm biased as went to school abroad where languages are valued a lot more than in the uk

RS is more useful than history?

I really don’t think so at all.