GCSE Options - History or German?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is chosing her options and can't make up her mind between History and German.

Apart from Maths, Science and English, she's doing RSPE, Music, French & German. But she's considering swapping one of the languages for History.

Trouble is, she really likes French but I think German will be more useful in the long run (thinking really far ahead, if she wants to work in Europe eventually!)
In her place, I'd do German and History. But I don't want to influence her too much because she loves French, and prefers it to German.

The annoying thing is, initially Music was just her 'reserve' choice but now she's firmly decided on it, so either German/French or History will need to be bumped off the list. She already plays two instruments and working with groups should be good for her personal development - if hard (has ASC, so not a 'fun' subject as such IYSWIM).

Any opinions on what would be best? Workload, prospects, difficulty, usefulness of specific languages... anything you can tell me would help. She's going mad & driving us mad trying to decide!

So many people rubbishing German on this thread, so I'll throw in an alternative opinion, my OH works for a big international company, he frequently uses German and has found his skills invaluable. He like to tell the kids what a pointless language French is, I tell him off for that of course. I'm a musician, I took French and German for GCSE and use both fairly regularly purely as they both appear in music.

I would want her not to restrict her future choices - They are both good subjects but if it was me advising my daughter I would tell her to stick with German as it will be very hard (/impossible) to take it at A Level if she has not done it at GCSE level whereas (in most schools at least) I would have thought that History can be taken at A Level without having done it at GCSE as the skills involved (document analysis, essay writing etc etc) will be acquired from other subjects.

(I speak from experience - I took up both History and Religious Studies at A Level having done neither at GCSE: thought I was a Science type but found that I preferred writing essays!)

Thanks very much for your replies - I was not expecting that many! Will try to reply to all individually -

Firstly, yes RSPE is Religion, Philosophy and Ethics 🙂. That's the only one she's firmly set on, so that's some Humanities there.

Sheila , thanks for reminding me that the main thing is not to rule things out and that it's not that important in the grand scheme of things.

ShadowPuppets, well done on the Italian. I am hoping she'll do that and pick one later if she wants to. It's just that I have a bad case of menopausal brain and see no learning after around 45 (I so hope it passes because it's bloody sad and scary!) So I tend to agreee with Checkcheck that it's best for a language to catch them when young.

NappyValley, thanks! Yes, a creative subject is the way to go.
daffodil, we're just a bit worried that her ASC will make it more stressful than fun.

AnotherSpare, thanks. She's bilingual (English-Spanish), which is why German seems a more useful choice. And thanks for reminding me not to look too far ahead! It's hard when they ask your opinion though...

Fenghuang, thanks, not aggressive at all! I am aware of the excess in the usage of 'I', and fully agree it's her life! DD has asked for my input and she suffers from decision paralysis, so I'm trying to justify my advice to her. Just thinking about having to choose has had her in a spin for months. And thanks for reminding me that it's not that important in the grand scheme of things!

Spooky, thanks, but I do think it makes a difference if you speak the language, even a bit. Huge.

Converseandjeans and ElvenDreamer, thank you. You articulate exactly my thoughts around German! I think it's much more useful professionally than most people think.

Thanks DalaiLlama, school said the same to us. What she enjoys should come first.

Thanks Dobby, she is not sure at all on what to do later, so choosing what she likes and is good at has been our advice too so far.

Chiasmi thanks for the perspective on RS being as valuable as History!

treesures thanks for your experience, that's interesting. DH is worried that picking up history at A level will be harder (he's quite the history buff but DD likes it too)

So to summarise - many of you think that History is useful for the analysis and transferable skills point of view. But so is RS, so maybe not that crucial. On the language side, some of you have experience of German being the more useful one. That letting DD do what she actually loves is important, as is doing something creative 'for fun'.

Will not show DD this thread as she'd be overwhelmed but will summarise for her (and DH!)

Thanks everyone. Any other opiniones welcome!

Language GCSEs are hard so if she likes French I would suggest she do that over German, I am not sure why you think German would be more useful in any case.
I have spoken French in several countries around the world but only ever used German in Germany and Austria.
History is also a good choice though, lots of thinking, analysis and essay writing skills.

A long time ago, I did French and German GCSE, didn't love either but developed a great knack of constructing sentences that were half and half!
I'd go French and History.

DH speaks fluent German and even he doesn’t feel it’s especially vital.

1 million years ago I actually did all of those subjects at GCSE (French, German, Music, History). I would say that PPs are right to say that she won't be able to speak much (to the point where the languages are 'useful') if she just does GCSE, so that's an argument in favour of keeping the one she likes, besides which French is an official language of the EU and also spoken in many countries worldwide.

I know you are not keen on MFL degrees (though arguably great as joint honours, and even a straight languages degree will include literature and culture, so it's essentially a liberal arts degree with the extra skills) but it's much easier to pick up beginner's/intermediate German at university if you want to. For French, many universities still only offer post-A-level.

I don't know how much music GCSE has changed since I did it, but at that time it was aimed both at pupils who didn't play instruments/know much music theory and those who did. So in practice it was possible to teach pupils to do the exams without that much rigorous music theory. Your DD's school might teach it in a more academic way if they're expecting all the kids to be having private music lessons, but she may otherwise still need separate music theory lessons to take grade 5, as she'll need that to progress to grade 6 flute.

So if it was me, having done all those subjects, I'd drop music, because it'll still be there as an extracurricular either way, but the GCSE doesn't actually add much to what she'll be doing anyway. I'd only take it if she wants an easy ride so she can focus more on the other subjects.

She should learn German .I live in Germany and there is a huge shortfall in skilled workers .This is only going to get worse in the next few years with the predicted numbers of workers retiring.German is far more useful than French being spoken in Germany ,Austria and Switzerland and contrary to popular belief the spoken language in these countries in the business world is German and for day to day life in these countries absolutely necessary.

Thanks for the additional replies!

I see there is quite a divide in opinions on the usefulness of German v. French! 😁

Thanks justlovedogs, half-and-half souds good to me! 😉

Thanks Zacharina, I hadn't thought about it being easier to pick up intermediate German at university than French, that's a good point.

About music, DD definitely doesn't want to drop the flute so you may have a point about extra lessons being required anyway. I think I'll email both the school's and the private music teachers.

Thanks schnubbins, that's a very interesting POV.

Hoppinggreen, can I ask if your DH is German? Do you/your DH live in Germany or work with German companies?

My thinking on the German thing aligns with schnubbins - from a purely professional point of view (as in live in Germany or work with big manufacturing/engineering German companies), I think German would be very useful.

No idea why I'm speaking like that, I am not envisaging DD in a high-flying finance role in Frankfurt stockmarket or anyting like that! But I wouldn't want her not to have the chance if she ends up being interested. Am probably not making any sense. I'm feeling the pressure of having to advise DD on her future without being sure if my own and DH's choices were the 'right' ones. And what is a 'right' choice', anyway?! I'm not surprised DD is stressed having to choose. They are just too young!

Hi OP lot of diverse opinion here - not surprising as either German or history is a good solid useful interesting GCSE choice. I would certainly advise that she goes with what interests her.

Couple of thoughts:

• German and French complement each other well at GCSE - the syllabi (assuming both AQA) and exam structures are identical so whatever you need to do for one (eg remember to use three opinions and reasons in the speaking, and ask the examiner a question), you know you need to do for the other.
• Two languages, even two quite different languages, will have crossover, as she will already know - whether that be cognates that don't work in English (Saal/salle for room for example) or structures to learn (perfect tense of go taking the verb to be not to have in both languages, for example).
• Two languages at GCSE is unusual and opens the door for two at A level which would be great. That said, German ab initio is becoming very common at unis (depressing for me as a Germanist).
• Not taking history at GCSE does not stop you taking it for A level, esp if you have something like RE to show you can write an essay. So if you hated the spec at GCSE but loved it at A level, this would work.
• German is supposed to be the most useful language in business. But that's not really a good reason to choose it if she prefers French.
• GCSE in a language will not make you bilingual, obvs, but the new(ish) spec is a lot more challenging than the one studied pre-2018, and yes you may well be expected to write and speak about the environment, homelessness, blended families, good and bad things about your town, benefit of university or a job - it's pretty in-depth tbh.

I am an MFL specialist btw (and have five language O levels (old) and three at A level; this has never been anything but a good thing for me btw. But I still think she should take history is she prefers. Just be aware if she was thinking of German A level, not taking the GCSE pretty much closes that door.

Agree with @clary that you can take A level history without doing GCSE. That isn't possible for MFL.

I always preferred French but ended up doing joint French and German degree and have hardly used my French since graduating. I have always been more in demand as a German speaker. I worked in manufacturing prior to teaching and German was definitely more useful.

Does she have to do RS?

I did GCSE History and German, and eventually went on to do a History degree. It taught many useful skills, research, reporting, evaluating, actual learning, presentation etc etc. I loved it, and got several job offers on the back of it. OTOH I've rarely used my German. I also did French, Latin and Italian. I found the Romantic languages easy, but haven't used them much.

Thank you clary and converseandjeans, it is definitely food for though what you both say about not being able to do A level German without the GCSE, but possible to do it with History.

Also good point by clary about the content itself being similar in both languages for the mechanics of the exam.

converseandjeans, yep, RS is the only one she's absolute sure about, oddly. She'll probably end up being a hermit in a Capadocian cave, contemplating life and the universe, and reading German and French philosophy! 😆

Thanks Breadcrumbs, good to hear History was useful for future jobs. I guess it depends what sector you end up going into - which is sometimes unplanned.

Oddly, I was in a similar situation. Is there a chance she might reconsider music? I’m not sure what she does extra-curricularly, but if she is already performing/playing outside lesson time or has scope to do so (perhaps with advanced theory or a musicianship course) she’s arguably get more out of that than music GCSE and would free up time for others.

Also, students do absolutely fine in Music A level without having done the GCSE, and school is likely to let her do that when it comes down to it even if they say they’d say no to it at the time of GCSE choices.

Just my opinion! I did all the above subjects, studied an instrument in Germany and then humanities back in the UK, and am an ex-teacher!

Anyway, whatever she does I wish her well and remember she will be fine. It’s also important she feels the choice she has made is her own, frustrating though that may be!

I was coming on to say exactly this about History. I don't have a history degree but it is seen as a harder academic subject than some other options and it can open gateways into other areas that are nothing to do with history. I applied to study law at university and I was mostly offered places contingent on getting ABB at A Level, but a couple of the universities insisted that the A be in history as my other 2 A levels were seen as softer options. I needed a History A grade to prove I had the skills and ability needed to study law successfully.

I would encourage her to do French (she loves it and that can make a difference to her likely success in the subject, plus I think it would be very useful to have in Europe. I think French is the official language of the EU isn't it?) and History but ultimately remember that it's her life, her decision.

My eldest is picking his GCSE options and I'm having similar discussions with him about geography v photography. He doesn't want to be a photographer or artist, so I think qualifications in geography and history will be more useful to him in the long run, but I can tell he's not going to be convinced. He loves history so that's a definite at least.

Thank you SpringtimeDaffodils , sounds like a similar path. I kind of wish she did reconsider Music, but on the other hand she does it purely for her own pleasure. We encouraged it as a way to meet other people, join an orchestra, maybe travel. As it is, the pandemic meant that local orchestra has dissolved and DD (autistic) now doesn't want to join any new groups (she does play once a week with the school band though, which has been a breakthrough).

Which is why we thought the having to play in a group for her GCSE would be good. That and the technology side of the GCSE - but no idea how in depth that is. I guess we see the Music GCSE as an 'easy' option that could help her along in growing up. Otherwise she has no 'easy' subjects and we do worry about overwhelm, which is common with her condition and has happened before.

Thanks for the good wishes, I do hope she is fine!

I could not disagree more with your view on language learning. It most certainly is not learing by rote, any more than Maths or Music are learned by rote (although I know that's how it was taught in the past). Plus the culture, the understanding and the open-mindedness they foster

In my experience, or rather my DC's, GCSE languages are exactly that - learning by rote. You memorise the passages, memorise the questions, memorise the answers and you pop out at the other end with a grade 9 and the ability to say that you go to the cinema with your friend but no genuine ability to converse.

Thank you Shiloh.

History does seem a good option. Although perhaps RE is similar in the type of skills it teaches.

Good luck to your son choosing his options! If everything else is quite 'academic' photography is probably a good additional subject.

Actually, does anybody have anything to say about how well regarded RS is/isn't is for uni entry?

Many lawyers start out with a history degree: it's extremely common. The skills are very useful

Thanks, DontMakeMeShushYou, can I ask how long ago did your DC take their GCSE's?

Asking because I did work in a school a while back and was apalled at how it was taught - the teachers were great, the syllabus was appalling. Grammar was 'too hard' for the kids to learn (which is nonsense). But I understand that since around 2018 the content is much harder, much more about learning structures and grammar, and learning fluency so you can construct your own communication. So as it should be taught - I am a linguist.

I guess the good thing is that they are both good choices! Slightly jealous that her school offers the chance to do 2 languages at GCSE as this seems really rare now.

Is there any interest or heritage that would say French before German? I would favour languages before History as the latter can be A level without

Thank you LexMitior .

I have heard that before. Not sure DD would be attracted to the law though.

Bramshott I know! We chose the school based on that, it's the only localish one that does. Not that many around.

LlynTegid, she prefers French (probably because she already did a bit in primary and loved it then), but she already speaks Spanish so for variety's sake German would be best.

Several OPs have said that History A level would be possible without the GCSE, which is good.

I would say German… meh…..useful if you want to work in Germany or Austria, but globally French is far more useful.

Music GCSE only easier if you already have grade 5 theory. ( do you still get ucas points for graded music exams ?)
I think if you are going to invest time and effort into two languages, seriously consider mandarin….believe it or not, one of the most useful universal language after English/Spanish globally.