SW London Private and Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2023 (part V)

[QuiteAJourney]

Following from our previous threads, including the latest (link below) www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4723610-sw-london-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023?page=40

Looking forward to continuing the journey together

I'm saying this in response to some truly batshit posts on mumsnet recently with parents talking about moving house or subjecting their children to crazy commutes for SPJ over Kings only because in their own words they perceive SPJ is harder to get into and for literally no other reason.

The most highly selective grammar school in North London, i.e. QE boys and HBS had no restrictions on where the kids live to sit the exam and attend. Year after year you will see children lives in South London, Kent, Essex, Berkshire, Cambridgeshire, Birmingham and as far as Scotland to sit the exam. Some will relocate to London if get in even there is good local grammar option for these children. You will see large coach network that shopping the students in these schools in the morning and afternoon.

To me this phenomenon is crazy and it is beyond my understanding. But on the other extreme, not looking the academic aspect at all for schooling sounds equally difficult to comprehend..

I think everyone here broadly agrees on this discussion about how important the academic aspect of the school is, as do I. However, I do think that one additional benefit of the schools doing well in the league tables is that it makes them popular, which in turn makes them stable economically and able to invest in facilities and teachers etc. A virtuous circle if you like.

Though on the other hand, there are negatives. One already pointed out is that academic schools can sometimes make very smart children feel stupid or average and lose confidence. Another is that there is a danger of them focusing on their strong position in the league tables and prepping for exams only. Finally, they can, if poorly managed, lead to some teachers resting on their laurels-relying on the hard work and brains of the children to deliver the grades. As opposed to pushing, being strict on homework, individual interventions etc etc. this can allow some children to go astray/ get lost.

@MomFromSE that research sounds interesting! Any chance you can share a link?

@momomamiko www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2019/nov/rich-resources-private-schools-give-pupils-educational-advantage

Here you go. It’s down to the additional financial resources which makes sense as it would party explains why private schools outperform grammar schools

Good to luck to those waiting for Radnor!

There is so much that I agree with in your post and subsequent ones (thanks, by the way, for posting the link to the UCL findings, so nice to see some work based on actual research and statistics).

Your final paragraph, imho, is key in explaining different approaches underpinning comments in this thread and previous iterations of it. Being competitive takes different forms in different people - from those that are competitive in relation to others to those that are more competitive with themselves. Similarly, chasing prestige/status matters more for some people than others (and we can see that not only with schools but in all aspects of life). Put together, it explains why a family more mindful of prestige and with a DC that thrives under competition might be more focused on league tables than a family that cares less about prestige and with a DC that tends to be more competitive with themselves rather than others. As you say, that focus should still balanced against other factors and considered in a more holistic manner.

Important considerations indeed as we await the results and, hopefully, face important decisions.

Ten days left to Feb 10!

Brilliant - thank you! @MomFromSE

For the mums like to find the data and research evidence. Let me share a research published in nature science and learning. It is useful to have data and research to stimulate critical thinking (not confirmation bias for some).

Differences in exam performance between pupils attending selective and non-selective schools mirror the genetic differences between them

"Putting our research within the context of rGE, we suggest that in addition to students being selected into schools based on their genetically influenced traits (evocative rGE), children themselves also actively select educational environments that correlate with their genotype (active rGE). In the case of high achieving students, these environments might be challenging or competitive academic institutions, which grammar and private schools are often reputed to be."

@momomamiko no problem. This article links to other studies as well that you might find interesting.

blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2019/11/06/paying-for-a-private-sixth-form-education-how-much-difference-does-it-make/

@PreplexJ as I mentioned, statistically, a students raw natural ability and their socio-economic background can predict most of their achievement. However, there have been a large number of studies that even after controlling for these factors show an additional advantage related to private schooling as well.

Re: Hampton 11+, interview/offer ratio? and offer/accept ratio guesstimates

The school booklets says they welcome around 160 students for Year 7. I'm not sure if this 160 is including 10+ and their feeder school?
Anyway, say they take 100 students from 11+ candidates.
I read they had 800+ candidates this year and 35% got interviewed. Means 280-300ish got interviewed.
Say, historically if their offer / accept ratio is 70%ish, then the school will likely make offers to 140-150 candidates.
Then is it fair to say, roughly half of the boys who were invited for the interview will likely get offers?

Also, if we assume there are “160” spots for 11+, then of 300 boys interviewed, 230 will get offers?
Any thoughts? Thanks!

@MomFromSE I have little doubt on private schooling is better than state schools in general.

The fact that a lot of parents in this thread chose to sit at selective private school. And nearly all the top 100 private schools in the league table use academic ability as their main selection method for admmision. Underpinning the idea that academic aspect is important consideration for choosing a school.

Parents with high achieving child chose top range league table schools is not about prestigious, but conscious consideration on the academic environment that suitable for their children. As pointed out by the research I forwarded.

Yes from what I have read/ heard etc, they have filled 80 odd spots from the prep and 10+ leaving 100 spaces for the 11+. HM said they have a high acceptance rate (which I would guess is code for they don't massively over-offer) but if I had to hazard a guess I would think that they offer 140-150 at a push. They did say they don't go deep into their waiting list at all. Good luck all!

@PreplexJ I think you are missing my point. All I am saying is that if you have offers from a school ranked 10th and one ranked 30th, assuming that there is an well matched academic cohort for your child in both schools (which there almost certainly will be) then focusing on league tables to make your choice isn't necessary. Either school will assuming the teaching is good, is likely going to produce similar academic outcomes.

Yes I kind of agree your point, thanks for clarifying it, I think this is an important small print.

If the difference is persistent over years and gap is significant (subject to individual interpretation) in terms of academic performance, parents will still have preference based on academic aspect.

@Deeekayy @underthesea3 it will be interesting to see if the extra entries that most schools seem to have will have an impact. I know quite a lot of boys including my DC who interviewed at Hampton who are not aiming for Hampton. I would be surprised if there acceptance rate is anywhere close to 70%.

Let's hope all our DC get a good offer. Unless schools massively over offer I think WLs will move a lot this year.

So plea to all don't sit on more than two places unless you are genuinely considering them, this process is hard we need to support each other.

Thanks both @QuiteAJourney and @MomFromSE for so much common sense here. Agree with so much of what you're both saying.

Of course there are children who are naturally competitive and thrive on competition (you only have to watch 10 or 11 year olds doing elite sport to know that).

But one of the sad truisms about the 11+ arms race is that sometimes it's the parents' sense of competition that's driving the process, not the needs or the best interests of the child. I've seen it year-on-year at my DD's prep: parents being categorically told that, for instance, SPGS isn't a good fit for their daughter, the parents refusing to believe it, tutoring their child to the hilt to earn a place, sometimes being successful (and who knows how that child will then fare) but more often not.

On the list of criteria as to what should be factors to consider for the next seven years of a young person's life, hopefully for most (sensible) parents, "How I'll feel telling my friends that my child goes to X school" won't even factor. Schools are not a status symbol for parents' reflected glory. (Though sometimes in SW London you might be forgiven for thinking that's the case!)

And totally agree @MomFromSE (and have made this point many times on iterations of this thread) that in terms of pure academics and a child's outcomes, it's a case of splitting hairs as regards the schools everyone's discussing here. The same child is not going to drop 20 UCAS points because they go to Emanuel rather than LU or PHS rather than G&L.

@VickiMent @EweCee have pmd you. Good luck for today.

@PreplexJ Thank you for bringing up the interesting discussion here. It is beyond boring to listen to the Mums talk on interations on the same slogans without substance.

Slogan 1: forget about league table, other factors more important.

Slogan 2: if you need to tutor to get in the school, then the school is not right for you.

Slogan 3: every DC will end up in the right school for them eventually

This is a discussion forum, so inevitably people will have different points of views, not least about their criteria when selecting a school for their child.

If you're finding it so boring, nobody is making you read it or participate! I'm sure you can find more interesting and productive things to do with your time - maybe another read of the Sunday Times Parent Power List. :)

"Sunday Times Parent Power List"

Don't think this is a good league table as indication of academic achievement of the secondary school, maybe it is OK with SW mums at tea time. The other thread in mumsnet has discussion on this at length.

I agree with a lot of what’s being said here in terms of not splitting hairs because of League Tables. Pretty much all of schools discussed on this thread will get your child to the same outcome!

I have an older DC in a super selective (younger one going through the 11+), and what’s key in the teen years is self-esteem and mental well-being, a lot of which is determined by friendship groups. Friends play a much larger role as they get older and parents less so.

The other key IMO is self-motivation. Parents can’t monitor their kids as closely when they are older, so if you have a self-motivated kid, they will do just as well at PHS or G&L or SPGS or whatever.

Furthermore, I’ve seen first hand what happens when parents ignore the prep school’s advice and push their kid really hard into a super selective. They might be ok once there (a gamble) but I’ve seen what happens when they aren’t. The parents have the ‘badge’ of saying ‘my kid goes here’, but what’s the ultimate point? The kid’s self-esteem really suffers and it becomes a downward spiral.

It was a joke 🤦‍♀️

@elevenplusmum22 thanks, that is really helpful!