SW London Private & Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2023 (Part II)

[QuiteAJourney]

Continuation of the thread
SW London Girls' Private & Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2023

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4643252-sw-london-girls-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023?page=40

Looking forward to continuing the journey with all of you!!

How do you know they absolutely take into account the school the dc attended? I really hope this is the case, as I think it would definitely help my dc. I was led to believe they don’t really give this much thought.

Because I have asked them about this since as I have got to know some of the staff members fairly well. I can obviously only speak for the one school I have experience of but I guess they are all likely to be similar.

As for almost no prep, about 25 hours total is indeed practically nothing when compared to the ridiculous idea that every child who gets into these schools is prepping like crazy from year 4 or even earlier. I absolutely do know children who did not do any prep at all.

@BonjourCrisette when did your DD take the exam?

Don't argue with some moms. Their children are geniuses who do not "understand" why most need to do a lot of preps (for some over 2 years). Just believe in them. It makes everyone feels better.

It doesn't matter if it is true or not. Just assume it is true, but back on track to discuss things more meaningful

Just arrived in London for less than a year. It is amazing to see so many geniuses in this part of the country, CATS over 138, no prep to get into SPG or SP or whatever school, etc.

@Justarrivedlondon Welcome to London and with you a Genius 2023!

Happy New Year! Unfortunately, unlike many moms here, I do not have a genius son, and so ever since we arrive in London about 9 months ago, we have been doing a lot of preps, unaware that we might have done too much! Anyway, mine is not a very clever boy and we still find it hard, and we start revising again after boxing day. A few more exams this month, hope that our hard work can compensate for my son's IQ.

I get tutoring is a touchy subject and people who engage in it may have mixed feelings about what they are doing but the responses have been unnecessarily defensive.

@BonjourCrisette statement that she knows kids at SPGS who got in with no additional prep beyond attending prep school was a reasonable response to a previous post about non-stop tutoring being the norm a Bute. Her daughter doing 6 months prep from state is also entirely plausible.

The more people hear that others are engaged in years of extensive tutoring the more pressure parents feel to do the same. It's good to hear that it's really not the only way.

2018

It is more important to understand what is "norm" and what is "exceptional" case.

I also know of some "Wunderkind" but unfortunately those are less than 0.1%

Years of extensive tutoring absolutely is not the norm for girls at SPGS.

Define "extensive". I know the students from the famous feeder school to SPGS do a lot of hours "extra prep study" outside the school. And that is from many months before the actual exams.

I have been on MN for years and I have followed @BonjourCrisette for years under I suspect a different name for both of us.
I know the state primary her dc attended and it's a completely normal
state primary in a wealthy part of SW London. I believe her dd did little than more stated but would suspect the parent is an ex St Paul's pupil.

The take away is that a bright dc can get into a top school by attending a state primary with good solid home environment and a few exam pointers. You don't need to go to a prep and tutor for moths/years to achieve this. If you spend any time on the Higher Education thread or the WIWikAU Facebook page then you would see private education has a much smaller role than parents believe in gaining a U.K. based uni place

Best of luck to all the dc continuing in their entrance journey but as you continue as a parent you see the same
Dc getting all the interviews / offers and then the grammar school offers in March as it makes your quite cynical about the assessment process.

@hockeyfun

Does mum and dad spend dedicated time doing 11+ related reading and vocabs, solving maths problem, mock interviews with DCs not considered as prep or tutor? Well if that is the case maybe I know some families with little preps then.

Happy New Year, everyone!

I think most sensible parents will accept that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to what constitutes 11+ prep. As @PreplexJ intimates, prep doesn't have to involve formal tutoring. Parental involvement /engagement in everything from logic puzzle books to reading with your DC at night and discussing the book in question to buying them some Bond / CGP VR / NVR practice books is arguably "prep".

Realistically, any parent who cares enough about their child's prospects in the 11+ to be on a MN thread about it - and, even more so, parents whose children sat the 11+ four years ago and are STILL on MN threads about the 11+ - will be invested in the process sufficiently to be doing prep (or have done prep in the past), whether that's paying for a tutor or extending their child's learning at home - through discussions or workbooks or extra bits of maths and English or online platforms like Atom or visits to museums / galleries etc etc. It's all extending a child's knowledge and giving them a better shot at 11+. Sure, those parents can say "We did no tutoring and still my child got into a top school" but that's not really an honest appraisal of the whole picture.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of formal 11+ tutoring for a whole host of reasons, and certainly not of extensive tutoring, both for the sake of the child's wellbeing through the process (no ten / eleven year olds should be being flogged) and for their future happiness (it's a legitimate argument that if a child needs two-three years of extensive tutoring to get into a school, it's not the right school for them). But it would be risible - and a downright lie - for me to say we're not doing prep with DD just because we're not using a tutor. DH and I are of the opinion that any vaguely intelligent parent with a smattering of time and initiative can help prep their child for the 11+, and from what I know of DD's school cohort, while plenty of parents claim they're "not tutoring" they're doing exactly the same as us. Parents doing extra work with their child - even if it's only the odd ten minutes here and there - is still tutoring.

If what @BonjourCrisette and others are saying is "you don't need to flog your child to get into top schools" I would completely advocate that. But equally, to suggest it's all or nothing - or that invested parents aren't "prepping" their child in a whole host of inconspicuous ways - is disingenuous.

At the end of the day, we all want our DCs to get into a good school, be happy and thrive. From everything I've ever read on Mumsnet, pretty much every child finds their place by the end of the process, whether or not it's exactly the place they - or their parents - anticipated at the outset. Hopefully, by being open and honest on threads like this (it's anonymous, after all!) we can help one another navigate our way through it all.

I agree with @hockeyfun. And with@BonjourCrisette. The huge amount of prep that seems the norm in some circles just isn’t always necessary. I say this not to boast about my DC, but to try and prevent other very young DC being worked so hard when (in my experience) it’s just not necessary.

I’ve written before about what we did - but vocab tests and dedicated 11+ reading time was never part of it. No interview prep for one DC either, though we did buy a 30 min practice interview for the shyer DC. About an hour a week of home tuition on maths from Y5 to cover what their primary hadn’t taught, and some exam technique coaching and a couple of mocks was what worked to get both DC a range of offers.

@LondonMum20222

Very well said and I agree with your comments wholeheartedly.

I find it odd (if that is indeed the word!) that someone would lurk on an 11+ thread 4 years after the DC did the 11+ to make claims about how little prep their DC did!

I myself have been through the 11+ process multiple times with different DC and whilst I definitely agree that different children need different amounts of ‘prep’, however that is defined, everyone getting into the super selectives has prepared to some extent.

As a parent with an older DC who is now in one of the London super selectives (I’m now going though it with another DC), I have also seen first-hand the kids who were prepped to within an inch of their lives to get in. These are the kids who struggle once they are there and it can lead to all sorts of issues in the vulnerable teenage years when there is less parental involvement. Sadly, for some parents it will always be about the ‘name’ of the school and not about what is truly right for their DC.

However, I do sincerely believe it’s disingenuous when someone says their DC got into a highly selective school without any preparation (or lurks on an 11+ thread to talk about it years later).

@BonjourCrisette I find that hard to believe, when I know Bute is a feeder school, and I know other feeder schools and all those girls tutor extensively. They also do other things from year 2 to help set them up academically, which is not "tutoring." But it is very much so extra work outside of the school, such as setting up fun book/writing clubs that meet every week for reading and then writing after (this helps with English and verbal reasoning). So perhaps its one of those children, who parents say they never tutored....but they set up their own book/writing clubs, math club 😂

I am sure there are some that do not get tutored, but they were def supported in some way whether they realize it or not. And yes, there are some kids that just naturally absorb information and just get it, my daughter is quite like that, but again if the school does not teach everything they need to know by the exam, they will need tutoring.

@PreplexJ yes, exactly, there are many people who will pretend or say they did nothing and they do other things like set up writing/reading, math, puzzle clubs from year 1 or 2 to get their dc doing extra studies/prep.

@hockeyfun yes, but when @BonjourCrisette says her daughter hardly did any prep to get in that is misleading, as then she casually mentions after that she did 6 months an hour a week. But I guess each to their own....perhaps to some people 6 months of prep is not much (esp when compared to the others that do 2 years or more!).

Having hobbies (if desired / driven by the child) and having parents that read to you isn’t tutoring. It’s very different!

A selective prep school like Bute specifically teaches for the exams and does exam prep and is very familiar with what prep is needed for these top schools. Loads of tutoring in this context feels like it would be driven more by fear than the need to prepare to get into a school that is truly the right fit for a child’s ability.

As far as I can tell all @BonjourCrisette said was she did 6 months prep from state school and knows kids from prep school who did no tutoring as prep school was enough. There are loads of posters on here from years before offering advice. I’m surprised so many people are essentially calling her a liar because she isn’t conforming to the narrative that if you don’t tutor for years you have no chance of being accepted to a top school.

@SamPoodle123 Bonjour was responding to a previous post talking about excessive tutoring at Bute which is the context in which she said only 6 months was not a lot. She obviously wasn’t trying to hide how much work she did as it was included in the same post as you’ve already noted….

@LondonMum20222, completely agree.

As for other comments on what has surely become a lively conversation, I think that there may be quite a lot of agreement (or more than it seems) hidden behind the very varied use of the word "prep" and the adjective "extensive" (which will always mean, to some extent, things for different people). My DD is at a non-selective indie and we have done some Bond/CGP extra work at home for under a year (maybe 1-1.5 hours on average). Is that extensive prepping? It may be for some but not for others. I am sure that there will be many views as to how that compare with other arrangements, including those in state schools and getting tutoring but also other kinds of prep, but without knowing the details (on the school, child, kind of tutoring, parental investment, etc) I, for one, would abstain for making generic statements.

Also, imho, the conversation might be getting derailed by generalisations about "most people" - from what I have experienced of this process, I would shy away from assuming that I know other people's arrangements and how open they are about it.

So, as far as I am concerned, I will stick to being honest about my personal experience, avoid passing judgment on other people's options, and abstain from making generalisations.

I can imagine schools (and the parents) do not want to be perceived as "hot house" or "exam factory", so want to downplay this aspect.

The ongoing NLCS thread next door does feel like that..

3+ hour homework per night seem a lot even for a super selective school like NLCS…

It is all prospective, homework is homework, it is NOT extensive prep for getting good GCSE and A level grades. 🙄

Just curious, for people that have experience, when they say they will let you know on or before X date, do they usually notify before the date mentioned? I am also wondering if they notify the people that made it to interview stage first and the ones who did not after.