SW London Private & Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2023 (Part II)

[QuiteAJourney]

Continuation of the thread
SW London Girls' Private & Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2023

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4643252-sw-london-girls-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023?page=40

Looking forward to continuing the journey with all of you!!

@WildBactrian my ds did the group interview for 16+ at sevenoaks last year where they were asked to decide who to save first in a disaster scenario and why. they had to choose from a headmaster, an mp, a scientist, artist etc. I am sure 16+ would be different than 11+ but wanted to share in case any help. good luck!

All true. And it's funny how the previous Bute head used to say "don't tutor your DDs" non-stop LOL

Thanks @momomamiko! I asked DS this question for fun and his answers surprised me in a good way, so I hope whatever topics come up he can contribute effectively and also display good listening skills.

@Butey it is quite frustrating though, that people are given the advice don't tutor, but you know SO many that are being tutored like CRAZY on top of being in prep schools.

I can't speak for Godolphin or for Latymer Upper but I have a DD at SPGS and she did almost no prep (she's not a genius but she is clever, talkative and keen to tell people about things and learn stuff). She previously attended a very ordinary state school (not leafy, not high achieving, in fact the school most people in our borough try to avoid). We did six months of tutoring (1hr per week, breaks for school holidays) aimed only at exam technique and speeding up her working rather than actual content and DD got into both the schools we applied for (SPGS and Tiffin). We know lots of others who are the same in terms of amount of tutoring and many who came from prep schools who did none. It is perfectly possible for a clever child to do well in these exams without much extra prep. They absolutely do take account of the school the child has previously attended.

I agree, that amount of tutoring that you describe is adequate to get into SPGS. However, I do not know many who truly did zero prep and then got into SPGS. And frankly, if somebody told me they did zero prep, I'm not sure that I'd believe them. You do not need two years of 5 hours/week to get into top schools, and that sort of schedule can backfire when the DC gets burned out. But again, I don't know of any that truly did zero prep and just showed up and did the exams...but I suppose they do exist.

@BonjourCrisette im sorry, but 6 months of tutoring is not almost no prep! That is prep and saying she did almost no prep and came from a state school could be misleading (until you mention the 6 months of tutoring) to those who listen to the don’t prep for the test 🤦🏻‍♀️ Tbh I do believe there are the few geniuses who don’t need any preparation at all. But there are loads that benefit from learning exam technique or at least covering the math that has not been covered. My Dc go to a state school and some of the math on the 11+ has not been covered yet, so it really would not be fair to take the test without preparing. At least in our area, private schools are known to be one year ahead in English and math. My dd took a mock (sat or cat , whichever is the one you take end of year 6) and everyone had half or a quarter blank (because they got it wrong). My dd got everything correct and that is because she was preparing for 11+ and there was one other student who had the same (also doing 11+ prep). Both my dc are at exceeding level in math and English at their school, but without preparing they would def not score as high as the dc in prep schools bc their school just doesn’t cover it all in time for the exam. My dd is clever, but she would need to learn certain math concepts before taking an exam, she would not be able to just figure out the math rules without ever being taught or shown it once.

Well done to your dd for getting into SPGS with only 6 months of tutoring. My dd also only did 6 months of prep and I’m hoping it was enough to get into the schools she applied to. If I had known we would take the 11+ route I would have started the prep earlier.

How do you know they absolutely take into account the school the dc attended? I really hope this is the case, as I think it would definitely help my dc. I was led to believe they don’t really give this much thought.

@Butey im sure 99.8% do some kind of prep beforehand. Yes, absolutely I think 6 months of prep can be enough for many. I think very rare for a dc to get in w out any prep. How would they know all the math without covering it? At least, at my dd school they have not covered it all yet. I’ve seen the 11+ mocks and there are def things that have not been covered, confirmed by my dd (she learned them via tutor/atom learning). And even the teacher told the dc after taking mock SATs tests that some things haven’t been covered yet, so don’t be concerned if you get many things wrong. My dd got 100 % on that SAT mock and the reason is because she did 11+ prep.

I am constantly amused by the parental claims (of which there are many on Mumsnet) that DCs got into the UK's top private and grammar schools without any preparation. Anyone would think we're still 16 again and pretending we did no work for our GCSEs by way of some kind of bravado that we're just incredibly brainy. 🤔

A couple of obvious facts. As @Mamabear12 points out, 6 months of tutoring is not "no prep". That's six months of prep. And the other poster's suggestion that their child's tutoring was only aimed at exam technique and "not actual content" is clearly nonsense. What content were they doing while working on "exam technique" and "speeding up her working" - presumably 11+ standard content like maths, English, VR and NVR. I doubt they were doing "exam technique" in 2+2=4.

I'm also baffled that any parent claiming not to have prepared their child at all for 11+ sees it as a badge of honour. You wouldn't expect a young person to pass GCSEs or A Levels with no prep. As an adult, you wouldn't go to job interview without prepping. Why would a parent think it a good idea to send a child into 11+ exams without any preparation? I think that would be pretty daunting for - and unfair on - a child, and an abnegation of parental responsibility. I'm not sure I'd be boasting about that if I'd actually done it.

I'm not sure if these parents who claim to have done no prep with their DCs for 11+ actually believe the narrative they're spinning, but it's not a narrative that any sensible parent will buy into. Interestingly, on Mumsnet it seems to come more from state school parents who seem to be implying that their children are just natural geniuses - "no expensive prep schools, no expensive tutors and still my DC got in!!" (The "Miracle" song from Matilda springs to mind. 😂) But my advice to anyone reading those posts about "My DD got into all the top schools with zero prep" would be to take them with a very large vat of salt! Sure, the tutoring factory has gone crazy, and I don't think any 10 or 11 year old should be being put through hours of prep every week. But there's crazy levels of tutoring at one end of the spectrum (which is pointless anyway, as no amount of tutoring can make up for raw intelligence) and then there's gentle, consistent levels of familiarisation. Every family will find a level they're comfortable with, but I strongly doubt any child at SPGS or Tiffins or G&L or CLGS (the list goes on...) got in without a shred of preparation.

IMO even child prodigy needs minimum 6 month proper prep to get into London top selective schools nowadays.

@LondonMum20222 well said.

@SamPoodle123 Thank-you! I just think the more we're all upfront and honest about the realities of this (frankly awful) process, the better!

@LondonMum20222, many thanks.
This thread is only as relevant as the honesty of the people sharing their experiences and views. Your post, as previous ones, makes that clear.

@LondonMum20222 messages crossed. We are definitely on the same page re: honesty (and also the process being awful - and, imho, even more so if people are not being honest with themselves / others).
Thanks again for being so upfront and honest yourself.

@BonjourCrisette

6 months of tutoring is not ‘no prep’! I’m not sure of the objective of your post and saying ‘no prep’ is required when your D.C. was actually prepped!

Anyone who cares enough to search out this thread and post on it knows that entry into the top London day schools has sadly turned into an arms race. Of course, some children need / get more prep than others, but anyone saying their child got in to such-and-such with ‘no prep’ is misleading others.

@LondonMum20222 great message, totally agree.

Parents:
"My DC never went to school and got a PhD in Maths from Cambridge"
"Oh, that's wonderful, sure"
LOL

😂😂😂

I think if you have a tutor then you're definitely prepping. Likewise if you're working at home with DC.

@Daydreamscometrue Agreed. Whether you're paying an indie prep school, paying a tutor, or working through Bond/CGP/Atom etc at home with your DC, it's all prep. I'm not sure how it benefits anyone (other than a parent's ego) to pretend otherwise!

Yes, I find this so odd, parents who say their dc do not prep, but then you find out they go to prep school or have a tutor etc. But then again, you will always find people who are not always 100 open about things. My dd did 6 months prep because we were not aware she would need to take the 11+ test until end of year 5....otherwise we would have prepped one year ahead for sure so we could feel more relaxed about it all. I am slowly starting some atom learning with my year 4 boy, but mainly because my dc attend a French bilingual state school, so not only are they behind private schools, but they have half their lessons in French so lose out on a lot of English vocabulary. All my dc are completely fluent in French though, so I am very happy with that :) But unfortunately, that does not help with the 11+ so we need to prep. I almost did no tutoring, but my sister convinced me to get a tutor (her dd goes to Bute) and she is the one who informed me of all the tutoring going on there (we only know of one dc in my dd class doing the 11+) so we are completely removed from it all and not aware of all the prep until speaking to other private school parents. And tbh, when I speak to the private school parents in our area, I get scared. I am very nervous we did not prep enough. If my dd was in a fully English school, I would not be as nervous....I just worry she might have missed out a bit, as half of all her lessons are taught completely in French (math, history, literature etc).

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how much tutoring the DC does or doesn't have if they're not academic and are aiming for the super selectives. You've got to be at a good standard across the board. A tutor can't make a child someone they're not. They can further enhance an already bright child though.

Yup, so true. Like most things, there are diminishing returns to tutoring/prepping. And either a kid is a 4 x 141 CATS kid, or they're not, you can't force it...although some try LOL

@bjmin yes exactly. Many try and it doesn't go well. You can only hope that the DC don't suffer with the inevitable rejection.

Tutoring can help - particularly with exam technique. I didn’t want DD walking into exams with no idea of what to expect. Her maths also improved which was a win.

This has ultimately go to be about finding the right school for the child though. They have to go there for 7 (very developmentally important) years.

It is a horrible process though

@bjmin yea, but some dc aren't stretched to their potential or given the opportunities to learn everything at school or even given the CAT test. In these cases, tutoring is needed. I agree, over tutoring is wrong, but making sure your dc has covered what needs to be covered gives them a fair chance.