Secondary education wobbles - I need some Mumsnet stabilisers

[wednesdaynamesep]

DC1 will be starting secondary school next year. We live in an area with a reasonably good state high school, but several parents are deciding to send their children to private school instead. It means I’m being subjected to tactless conversations about how crap the state school is, and all the so-called issues with it, which I know is necessary for them to justify their own choices. I am also aware that these parents also all have other things in common too: objections to neuro-diverse children in their kids classes; complaining about not enough homework being given to kids; general views on education that I think seem very old-fashioned.

However, despite knowing this, the criticisms are getting to me and I’m now worrying about DC1 to the point it’s costing me sleep. The state school our DC will go to is among the top 10 in the three constituencies close to us. But it is a catchment area which mixes kids from higher earning families and ‘riff-raff’ as one of the mothers revoltingly said (she was talking about the poverty in the area). Whenever I quietly think through my views on state vs private, I feel confident that state would be best, over-all, for my DC. But my confidence slips every single time I bump into another person’s endless stream of negativity.

I say nothing in response to all of their comments, because I know anything I say will be interpreted as defensive or sour-grapes. (If pushed, we could afford private, but it would be very tough).

DH and I have had endless conversations, and we’re sticking to our state-school choice, but I feel I need to find a way to reassure myself that, come what may, this will work for our children, and even MAKE it work for them if necessary.

My plan of action

1. Avoid these parents (difficult because they are DC1s friends)
2. Identify families similar to DH and I who send their kids to this school and ask how their children are getting on
3. Research the school more (so far, the biggest ‘objection’ I can find is that not all the children come from high achieving wealthy families)
4. Speak to primary school teachers who have sent their own children there

Then

1. Come onto Mumsnet and ask mothers how they support their kids' secondary education. DH and I are feeling we need to spend time every week checking on our chikdren's education, helping them if need be etc. Problem is, even now at Primary school, I don’t actually know what they’re doing in class, and asking them doesn’t help at all either. Also, my kids get very grumpy when I push them wrt homework or doing a bit extra when they’re stuck on something.

So, how do you do it? How do you keep tabs on what they’re doing and where they need help. How do you motivate them? I’d massively value your tips and strategies.

You need to become friends with people applying to the same school. If they have older kids already there then that is a major bonus. I'm not sure why you're finding it hard to avoid your DD's friends parents? As she's year 6, aren't a lot of social events a group of kids with an adult supervising ?

No teenager is going to happily accept being micromanaged and having checks every weekend. That's going to end up in tension at your house.

Doesn't your primary issue a curriculum plan ? my kids are secondary now but their primaries (different ones) would send home what they were covering that term. For example, I'd know that Vikings was the current history topic. For maths I assume that homework about fractions means that they studied fractions that week,

I was in a similar position OP - I felt very strongly that our local comp (which is of the "bog standard" rather than "leafy affluent" variety) was to be preferred over stretching ourselves to afford private education. This was, in part, due to the fact I'd had a private education myself and had been underimpressed!

The rationale was along the lines of a I wanted a local school in the local community with the DC having local friends, with the money I wasn't spending available for enriching (whatever clubs they wanted, within reason), tutoring where necessary and to provide "stuff" for school to make their life easier (e.g. I've just bought 16 year old DD a new laptop - she had an old clunky reconditioned one, and having money for a new one, whilst not an essential will definitely make her heavy essay based courses much simpler). And my other observation was that money for house deposits has made more difference to adults I know than money spent on private education (if you can afford both, this is of course a different equation).

In my case it was my parents and siblings (who sent their DC to private schools) who looked down their noses at us, and they were much harder to ignore.
I got round it pretty much by not engaging (and hugging to myself any instance of "less than perfectness" from the private school - yes that was petty I know).

In terms of how you support them, there are regular reports and parents' evenings and schools will flag up any genuine causes of concern.
To a degree you have to trust your children. In the interests of complete disclosure I think it's likely that DS (who was the bare minimum type of child) might have got better grades if he'd gone to a school which really pushed him. I also think he might have been miserable there, and actually he's been able to go on and do what he wanted regardless, and with the knowledge and the experience that he took the rocky road to get there. My observation of their private school cousins is that they are much less independent than my own DC - I'm sure some of this is personality, but some of it is definitely from being in a very insulated environment.

Remember that, as you've noted, the private school parents will have doubts too. And when you are paying out a shedload of money having doubts is much worse than if you're not.

Also, worth pointing out, is that if state school really doesn't work out, you do have the fallback of entering private school at a later point. Much harder to move into state once you've started in private.

This was, in part, due to the fact I'd had a private education myself and had been underimpressed!

Snap! Both DH and I were privately educated at different schools and we would prefer to not have that for our children. My parents wish they'd made different choices for my sister and I. It's about so much more than education for us. I can't think of a single career or university education that wouldn't be enhanced by life experiences of diversity. I also think my children would derive more independence from a state school (again, based on my own personal experience). And I hope they would take more responsibility for their own personal development and education, skills that I think will payoff endlessly through their lives. And like your thinking, we're ready to plug gaps if need be. Whenever I go through my check-list, I know why we're doing what we're doing, but .... crikey ...

I'm not sure why you're finding it hard to avoid your DD's friends parents?

It's a very small community - impossible to avoid anyone really. But especially parents of friends who tend to group and chat at the school gate because we know each other well.

Doesn't your primary issue a curriculum plan ?

We get a very very general objective. We might have specifics around topics, but I would only know what's happening in maths if homework was sent home, and if I sat with DD to do it. I haven't done that before, unless she asks for help. DD tends to just get on with it herself. But I'm thinking I need to be a lot more actively involved.

@wednesdaynamesep
Children at private schools are mostly perfectly well adjusted and understand diversity when it comes to work. I assume you are perfectly well adjusted and accepting of others? So why are privately educated DC now unable to be like you?

Your DDs friends’ parents are justifying their choices. As you seek to justify yours. I can guarantee these people won’t stay as your friends when you don’t have education in common. Why would you want them anyway? They just make you doubt yourself and your decisions. If you and DH agree, just do it. Use the state school and get on with it. You come across as doubtful and even slightly envious. Why do you need to justify your decision to them? Or indeed anyone? Do you secretly think they might be on to something? If they are not, stand firm.

However if you don’t like people saying unkind things about DC in state schools, you shouldn’t say unkind things about people in private schools. I know perfectly well
they can be kind, tolerant, accepting of anyone and just like you! I know it’s the parents you don’t like but don’t label
the DC too. What DC see around them at school doesn’t define them for life.

For what it’s worth, you can go through life having differing views to others. You don’t have to do what others do. I chose a different educational route for DD1. It was the best decision for her. I wasn’t making it for anyone else to approve of. You should do the same.,

You will probably find that the secondary school uses an app for homework, to which parents also have access. That means you can see what they've got to do by when and issue the odd reminder, without coming across as micromanaging. Offer help, but don't be surprised if it's rejected. The school may also have an after-school homework club.

I can see why the negativity is getting you down, especially as you have a few months more of it! I take it you've been to an open evening? If not, maybe you could get a tour and ask more questions.

I assume you are perfectly well adjusted and accepting of others? So why are privately educated DC now unable to be like you?

I grew up in Africa. The private schools where I live now are probably 99.9% white Christian and affluent. I seriously doubt anyone who goes to one of those can even remotely have my understanding of diversity or poverty or difference. Explain to me how I'm totally wrong about that.

Why do you need to justify your decision to them? Or indeed anyone?

I'm not justifying my decision to them or anyone. As I said in my OP : "I say nothing in response to all of their comments because I know anything I say will be interpreted as defensive or sour-grapes"

You come across as doubtful and even slightly envious. [and] Do you secretly think they might be on to something?

Gosh. Almost as if it is a script.

That would be useful and thanks for flagging this to me so I can ask. I've just arranged to meet up with parents who will be sending their 4th DC there soon to get an honest view of the school. And they could very very easily afford private school so I'm dead keen to hear why they haven't gone down that route. And there are three other families in the area who are financially very well off who also chose the state school. These are the people I feel I really need to talk to.

And yes, the next few months are going to be quite irritating. It baffles me the way people freely run-down a school they know others have chosen to their face. It's so rude: they might as well just come out and say that other parents are making crap choices that will be harmful to their children.

If you're feeling bolshie, you can call out the parents who consistently do the state secondary down ... or just smile and say 'horses for courses'.

@wednesdaynamesep
My DDs both went to boarding school in South Africa. Plenty of girls were black. You are also completely wrong. It is very unfair to say school is everything you know and colours everything you think and do. Obviously you do not agree but there are loads of people who were privately educated who completely understand what you
talk about. You had a privileged education. Has that made you unable to empathize with others? With me, yes.

You said you cannot avoid these parents and their comments. So what do you say to them? I don’t understand what doubts you have? Why do the comments you don’t respond to, wake you up? If you are right, you are right. It might be tiresome but people are allowed to have different views. If you think they are rude, choose your friends more carefully.

This is so odd. I don't know if we're talking at cross purposes.

I grew up in Africa, and yes, lots of black children go to private schools there. Initially though - and, frankly, especially in South Africa - those schools were set up so white people could send their DC to schools where there weren't very many black children.

I now live in the UK with my DC. Private schools where I currently am are not remotely comparable to private schools in countries like South Africa when it comes to diversity. Maybe they are where you are, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a single black face among the kids leaving the school of choice for the parents I'm talking about.

And no, I don't believe a theoretical understanding of diversity taught top-down in school is any substitute for actually experiencing and living with diversity.

What do I say to those parents? Nothing. I do not engage at all. I do not challenge them or explain myself. I silently let them waffle on, and privately marvel at how rude they are and how empty-headed they sound and how totally oblivious they are to the the way they come across.

I can be assertive, but I honestly can't be bothered with them as individuals anymore. I've lost a fair bit of respect for a couple of them who say awful things, but are totally oblivious to how awful they sound, or why what they're saying is so awful.

But nor can I avoid hearing what they're saying, and I can't automatically dismiss negatives if I don't know for a fact it isn't true. I'm sure I'm not the only parent at the gate unsettled by it either.

In the private schools where my kids go I'd say only about a third of the year are white, about 10% are Afro-Caribbean and most of the rest have Indian or Sri Lankan heritage.

These other parents are so rude. I'd challenge this. 'Well my johnny is going there so please don't bitch about it'

You have great self-restraint OP! We have a very leafy comp near us which people endlessly bang on about. I work in an inner city comp with a very different intake. The leafy school just got a very poor Ofsted and I had a secret smile to myself!!

These parents are unbelievably rude and are also trying to justify their decisions to themselves. There is no point in discussing this with them in the hope that they will change their position - that way madness lies. I would just avoid the topic, and them, as much as possible for now, make new friends who are sending kids to the same school as you and hope that some friendships can be re-kindled/salvaged in time.

I agree, avoiding is best. I might extend avoiding to their DC too after listening to one precious possum (aged 8), telling my son he was going to be going to a school which had x,y and z and won awards and was so much better than the school DS would be going to. All while his mother smiled indulgently and proudly at him. Just ... yuck! I'd be mortified if a child of mine did this. Fortunately it went right over DS's head.

OP that is really bad behaviour on the part of that parent. Honestly I wouldn't want to be friends with them. You'll make different friends and move on.

One parent literally grimaced when I told her which school my son was going to. Awful woman. I didn't like her before and avoid as much as I can now.

If DD is getting on with it herself, and you are getting decent reports at parents' evening etc, then I'd carry on with that. Independent working at that age is a positive.

Can you say that you have heard that Oxbridge are actively trying to recruit from the comp and you are playing the long game.

In general I would say that as long as it is not really disruptive and your children work then GCSEs should be fine, they can always move for sixth form.

I know what you mean. I'm in the lovely situation of having come out the other end (local comp) with everything OK. So that feels great, obviously we made the right choice.

Except... we probably didn't, because there is no right choice, and the perfect school is an illusion. There were some really disappointing things about ds's school. The sport was and is terrible; ds liked cricket at one point but by about age 13, only about 2 state educated kids were still getting into the local club teams. The only thing ds played regularly at school was Dodgeball. Ds's English teacher in year 7 and 8 was so boring I could barely sit through a parents' evening 5 minute meeting. The language teaching wasn't bad in itself but the amount of time dedicated to it and the outcome were pretty awful.

And yet... it was a spectacularly good school for ds. He had lots of really, really good teachers. He was taught above all to be a self starter, to get on with it and to value his own skills and those of others. The pastoral care was simply amazing- dh died when ds was 14 and they just wrapped him in highly professional care and support. Academically he's now at Cambridge and although that's a step up in pace, he seems to be doing fine. He got sport from the local athletics club and music from his piano teacher and was deeply embedded in his own community.

Look for a school you think fits your child and your family reasonably well - for me it was about the head teacher, who I really rated - and then don't worry. People do stop talking about it eventually!

Just ignore them. Yes, their children will be the recipients of unearned, paid privilege. Yes, they will likely get better results, emerge as more ‘polished’ and confident young adults.

But, these privately schooled kids, in my experience at least, often have a superficiality and lack of empathy with society as a whole beyond their bubble. They are also more prone to conservative tendencies.

Your kids will take a knock in terms of a first leg up the greasy pile of some careers and universities, but they will be better people for it.

We are like this except we only have one school in our catchment to choose from, and it generally has terrible feedback some parents choose to send kids to private school, but the nearest one is about 7 miles away and a nightmare to get to in rush hour so a none starter for us with younger kids too!

I was awake worrying at night before our eldest went there last September (she's year 8 now). I was riddled with doubt and also guilt that she perhaps wasn't going to have the same academic opportunities as some of her friends who were going private.

The school is ok(ish) but to ease our worries we've gone with the "state plus" option and we started her with a tutor after Christmas last year. Best thing we ever did! She gets the benefits of a "private education" without the multiple drawbacks, and she's generally happy at school now (happier now she's performing well academically). We chose a company called Tayberry who do all different subjects and have been pretty flexible with us, so DD has English and maths tuition, but she's also had a couple of French sessions too, but that model works well if you're not confident in the school necessarily. If you can afford it this is the best option we've found.

Love this

Ignore and be glad when you leave primary. So much rubbish & parents getting into a frenzy. Go local & free. So many benefits. Some people don't get how fabulous state schools are