Secondary education wobbles - I need some Mumsnet stabilisers

[wednesdaynamesep]

DC1 will be starting secondary school next year. We live in an area with a reasonably good state high school, but several parents are deciding to send their children to private school instead. It means I’m being subjected to tactless conversations about how crap the state school is, and all the so-called issues with it, which I know is necessary for them to justify their own choices. I am also aware that these parents also all have other things in common too: objections to neuro-diverse children in their kids classes; complaining about not enough homework being given to kids; general views on education that I think seem very old-fashioned.

However, despite knowing this, the criticisms are getting to me and I’m now worrying about DC1 to the point it’s costing me sleep. The state school our DC will go to is among the top 10 in the three constituencies close to us. But it is a catchment area which mixes kids from higher earning families and ‘riff-raff’ as one of the mothers revoltingly said (she was talking about the poverty in the area). Whenever I quietly think through my views on state vs private, I feel confident that state would be best, over-all, for my DC. But my confidence slips every single time I bump into another person’s endless stream of negativity.

I say nothing in response to all of their comments, because I know anything I say will be interpreted as defensive or sour-grapes. (If pushed, we could afford private, but it would be very tough).

DH and I have had endless conversations, and we’re sticking to our state-school choice, but I feel I need to find a way to reassure myself that, come what may, this will work for our children, and even MAKE it work for them if necessary.

My plan of action

1. Avoid these parents (difficult because they are DC1s friends)
2. Identify families similar to DH and I who send their kids to this school and ask how their children are getting on
3. Research the school more (so far, the biggest ‘objection’ I can find is that not all the children come from high achieving wealthy families)
4. Speak to primary school teachers who have sent their own children there

Then

1. Come onto Mumsnet and ask mothers how they support their kids' secondary education. DH and I are feeling we need to spend time every week checking on our chikdren's education, helping them if need be etc. Problem is, even now at Primary school, I don’t actually know what they’re doing in class, and asking them doesn’t help at all either. Also, my kids get very grumpy when I push them wrt homework or doing a bit extra when they’re stuck on something.

So, how do you do it? How do you keep tabs on what they’re doing and where they need help. How do you motivate them? I’d massively value your tips and strategies.

Ignore, ignore, ignore. Just say ‘hmmm, really…’ when they blather on.

The only real difference may be a patina of ‘gloss’ acquired by virtue of believing they are better because they attend x private school. Clever and bright state children have exactly the same polish by the way. Don’t explain you choices, you don’t need to justify why you don’t send you child to private.

Teacher of 40 years here, in a range of state school types. It makes sod all difference in the end. Your child will be successful anyway, because the aspiration, support and interest of the parent is far more important than any other factor in determining the success of a child.

You don’t need to ask for advice on how to make sure your child is successful, the teachers will do that. Just be an mildly interested parent, have high standards for your child’s behaviour and how they treat peers and adults, and make sure them dream about what exciting things they will do in life. Job done

OP I feel for you, I will be in a similar position when it comes to it in a few years. Lots of lefty leaning friends who seem community minded themselves but who went to private schools as children so I suspect will make those choices themselves too.
We couldn't afford it but it's very much not for me.
Remind yourself of this - you absolutely do not want your child brought up and educated alongside families who talk about other people as "riff raff". Imagine the life long damage to interpersonal skills and empathy that does.
Many (most) schools are notoriously sexist and embed gender stereotypes that would affect your DS's emotional development during puberty.
Also family support and a stable income are a much higher predictor of achievement than private vs public. It's you have a close family, support education and are solvent your kid will do the same in state school but you'll also have enough money for the odd family holiday.
Be confident in the school you've chosen. I'm certify your DS will flourish.
I'm going to end up with people attacking me for this post but I don't care.

Sorry DC. I'm not sure why I thought I read DS.

OP I lost a friend over this. She is a teacher and regularly exclaimed how awful state provision is and fought to get her DD into any private school. I was supportive of her choice but after several lunch meetings when she sat slating state education knowing that’s for my three kids, I decided not to meet again!

in cases of other friends who have gone private, we don’t discuss it too much. I think private schools offer huge opportunities extra curriculally, and it’s a hassle to do that outside of school. Personally I don’t think the teaching is better however. My children also see a board range of kids and behaviour and ironically have decided to work harder as they don’t want to end up like “x and y’all parents”.

if we could easily have afforded it and live closer I would have gone privately. I don’t think state is “better”. But we live in a local community too and that is important. Life isn’t perfect and in the long run I think these things seem to matter less

my older sister sent all hers to the local average comp and all have done well. Her friend had a very mixed time privately but there were already issues

“Don’t want to end up like X and y’all (y’s) parents”! How snobby of your children! What’s wrong with these parents? Are they a bit thick? Or feckless? Why are your children rude about other parents? At least going private you don’t make comments about other parents like that.

I love the way people have got defensive on this thread. It really is a horribly stressful time, choosing secondaries, mostly because everybody gets so stressed about it and lots of people betray themselves as unspeakable snobs (riffraff indeed).

All you can do is say 'can we talk about something else please' and nurture your own beliefs about what's best. Apart from anything else the school discussion gets really boring. Even the usual talk about house prices and extensions is less dull.

In answer to your question about supporting their education, just do the normal things you're presumably already doing. Be interested in things. Read and have books in the house. Spend money on experiences rather than things if there's a choice. Remind about homework, make sure they have time to do it, and help them plan when to do it if they need it (one of mine does). But leave the actual doing to them unless they ask.

Could you go in and speak to the head and ask for a general message to go out to all parents mentioning it's a stressful time for everyone and encouraging all parents to minimise talking about future schools at pick up and drop off, especially in front of other people's children as some children were being upset by the discussions of one school being better than another.

I think at this point if other children are openly one-upping other children about school choices it has got out of hand and a general reminder about being polite and supportive of all choices, is the way to go.

@BlueChampagne
I live in a grammar county. Some parents have talked up the grammars and been dismissive of the secondaries since Y5. You will not get them or their DC to change. It means you are mostly choosing your parental friends pretty early on. The fact the OP didn’t know what her “friends” thought is odd. Most I’ve met are pretty obvious about what they want from YR. Tuition outside school is a giveaway. In fact the less competitive parents were at the prep DD went to. They mostly had the money to be relaxed. They were certainly less wound up than the state parents.

The general rule should be “If you cannot say anything nice, don’t say it at all”. That encompasses everyone. Including those who don’t think parents at their school are good enough. It seems everyone can be rude!

I have been in your position, chosen the state school and my children are now at top universities and I’ve no regrets. Our school also had a homework app and we followed what homework had been set and the topics involved. We bought the relevant CGP KS3 revision guides and recapped those topics during the holidays. We listened at parents’ evenings and worked on any weaknesses raised. Come GCSEs and Alevels, we did employ tutors when our children were struggling with certain topics. I found that it was assumed our children would do well and so weren’t in the groups for additional focus and so we provided this via tutoring and parent assistance. Overall, I feel we had the best of both worlds.

It will be fine, sounds like you have access to really good state schools! Private is so costly and not an option for most.

I went through something similar with my dses. We opted for the local state school whereas many parents opted for schools further afield and were quite vocal about their reasons. The local school had a bad results record and not great ofsted but we could see ann improving picture and felt our dses could do well anywhere. It was also a relatively small school at the time.

It was the right decision for us, both excelled, one is now at Oxbridge, the other at another top university. They got excellent teaching and nurturing, but they were both self motivated and naturally academic.

fizz I’m referring to the parents of kids who are on drugs sadly. There are one or two in each class. It’s a very mixed area. It’s affected my kids and they have watched the neglect of these children. Some are now in long term foster care.

You're all so lovely. Thank you.

@spare123

I can only dream of that level of diversity where we live. We once, a long time ago, had two Asian children at our school and the utter crap that was spouted about them was so so shocking. In fact, I'm wondering right now if that experience might have informed my deep suspicion of schools that lack diversity.

@shreddies

One parent literally grimaced when I told her which school my son was going to.

Revolting. I haven't had a grimace yet, but I have had a 'No way would I send my child there". Horrible.

@PermanentTemporary

He got sport from the local athletics club and music from his piano teacher and was deeply embedded in his own community.

This is something else that matters very much to me. I want my children to have a strong sense of community and belonging. I didn't have that, uprooted as I am from where I grew up. The private school would require two bus-rides and my children spending a lot of time commuting. Apparently this gets even harder when they form friendships with the children who live in town and want to stay on after school.

@EastLondonObserver

They are also more prone to conservative tendencies.

I wonder if they get this from their parents, or the school?

@123woop

The school is ok(ish) but to ease our worries we've gone with the "state plus" option and we started her with a tutor after Christmas last year. Best thing we ever did! She gets the benefits of a "private education" without the multiple drawbacks, and she's generally happy at school now (happier now she's performing well academically). We chose a company called Tayberry who do all different subjects and have been pretty flexible with us, so DD has English and maths tuition, but she's also had a couple of French sessions too, but that model works well if you're not confident in the school necessarily. If you can afford it this is the best option we've found.

Thank you for all this. I'm taking notes!

@anyonenowheremypenis

Teacher of 40 years here, in a range of state school types. It makes sod all difference in the end.

A little bit like your final Uni marks 😂. I have thought this too: they will all end up at the same universities. I remember arriving at University in the UK and innocently revealing my private education. I got some 'chat' about it from the state educated students. At the t8me it seemed so unfair, but I kind of get it now, after living in theUK for so long. And I have a feeling the Boris years will have entrenched negative views even more since then.

@YukoandHiro

Remind yourself of this - you absolutely do not want your child brought up and educated alongside families who talk about other people as "riff raff". Imagine the life long damage to interpersonal skills and empathy that does.

Oh god, abso-bloody-lutely! I don't even think they need to talk about it, that's why I think so many DO send their kids to private school. As I said in a previous post, in Africa, private schools were initially set up to preserve white spaces away from black children. Here, I suspect they were about keeping out the poor and reinforcing class boundaries. The woman who used the words "riff-raff" accidentally said the quiet bit out loud. I loathe it. One of the other parents is definitely 'class' driven and even has a hierarchy of appropriate private schools in mind. English is her second language so she often states things very bluntly, and I know she thinks sending her children to a private school will afford them access to the elite, whereas I suspect the 'elite' will still be very aware of where her children come from and maybe tolerate them, but never fully accept them. I don't want to subject my children to the repulsive indignity of that either.

@BeethovenNinth

My children also see a board range of kids and behaviour and ironically have decided to work harder as they don’t want to end up like “x and y’all parents”.

I can imagine that happening where I am too with my children. There is some extreme hardship; for example, children with parents who are drug dependant etc. A friend of mine works with these children so I know exactly where we are headed and how agencies and schools work with it.

@TizerorFizz

“Don’t want to end up like X and y’all (y’s) parents”! How snobby of your children!*

It isn't snobby. It's the harsh reality of poverty - and the lessons I for one am talking about when I refer to diversity and wanting my child to have an understanding of it. Drug addiction, unemployment, homelessness, hunger etc etc etc . Not a world trussed up in a glitzy bow where everyone is healthy and wealthy.

@BlueTick

I could speak to the head, but the community is so small it'd probably make things worse.

@TizerorFizz

The fact the OP didn’t know what her “friends” thought is odd.

Not really. Up until now most have extolled the virtues of the community and been happy with the state school option. But there was a single incident a few years ago that has coloured all perceptions about the 'type' of people who might attend the school. One parent opted for private and it's snowballed, like a prejudice contagion.

@JamesGiantPledge1

I found that it was assumed our children would do well and so weren’t in the groups for additional focus and so we provided this via tutoring and parent assistance. Overall, I feel we had the best of both worlds.

I can imagine that happening with us too. DH and I have an absurd number of degrees between us and I have already experienced people saying 'Oh YOUR kids will be fine'. I am so deeply hoping for the best of both worlds too.

@BayCityTrollers

It was the right decision for us, both excelled, one is now at Oxbridge, the other at another top university. They got excellent teaching and nurturing, but they were both self motivated and naturally academic.

There is a parent in the community whose DS recently finished at Oxford, after going through this state school. I'm planning to have a good chat with him. I have heard about his kid and he sounds like a stunning young man, committed to helping young people in his community do as well as him.

When it comes to tutoring... I would definitely say go for it. Most private school children have tutors apparently! For ds I called on tutors for specific things - whenever he appeared to lose confidence after stepping up in Maths (he's exceptional at Maths but not always confident), and a week at a language school so that I felt he would spend at least a few minutes of his life actually speaking another language...

Cross post. I knew this was exactly what you meant. It's quite a sobering reality.

Hello, one of my kids is in a comp and the other has just left a comp to go to uni. The one still at school has an app which I access. It details how many pieces of homework are outstanding, how many 'behaviour points' she has (this is for positive behaviour) etc. Maybe you'll have something similar at your chosen school so you can keep some kind of track on how things are going?

I've been in a similar position to you, absorbing people's snippy remarks about our local comps primarily from people opting out of the state system. Just keep in mind you may not see most of these parents after next year. I found I shed quite a few 'mum friends' when my kids moved from primary to secondary.

If you are supporting your kids at home they'll be absolutely fine. It sounds as though you are, plus you're sending them to a decent school (presumably the school's progress 8 is good?). The combination of the two will sew huge rewards. 99% of the kids I know who went private have done no better in GCSEs or A Levels than my kids or their mates. And actually I'm noticing almost all the private kids moved, or are about to move, back into the state sector for 6th form. No idea why though.

We were not solvent enough to opt for private schools and, to be honest, I now know I would have wasted a huge sum of money doing so. I went to a private school by the way and I don't think they're all they're cracked up to be.

Ignore them. They are justifying their own choices. Think in the current climate a decent state school is a great choice. The universities are really upping their game at seeing beyond the private school bullshit.

The university outcomes for top performers from state school are better than those from private school as state school teaches you how to self start.
With the cash you are saving on fees you will be able to afford amazing extra-curriculars.

I went to both state and private school (latter for my final 2 years). State was fine. If it had been topped up with more music lessons, and a bit of language tutoring it would have been really great.

OP you sound lovely, go with your instincts and find some nicer friends!

DS got a free place at private (not a snobby one) and it gradually filled up with ND kids as the years went on and they struggled with mainstream noise / environment / class size so unless it’s one of the private schools that deliberately screens out ND kids they may find the school has a higher concentration of them than mainstream. My other DS is ND so I could spot even those who weren’t diagnosed. Many parents chose private because their kids were ND and too able for special schools! And yes many private schools have seen a drop in kids getting into top unis over recent years as unis rebalance their intake. This wasn’t why my ds went - he was extremely shy and super bright so a smaller school with a bursary was right for him. He would have done academically just as well in state.

I'm surprised at the social aspects people are advising. I don't mix with kids' friends parents. Outside of any necessary logistics e.g. if another parent is helping to take my DC to a party, or clarifying some homework on class whatsapp. You do you, they do their thing.

The MAJOR benefits to going to the local school are easy travel and local friends. The friends thing becomes increasingly important once kids hit the teen years. (Private schools often have massive catchments and friends can easily live hours apart)

There are also significant benefits to going to a school with a mixed catchment, rather than just mixing with well off middle class children attending a private school.

Also, if you aren't stretching yourself financially to pay private fees, you can afford extra curricular activities and family holidays.

Our local London comp was the absolute best thing I could have done for our kids.

They have their feet on the ground, know how fortunate they are in the great scheme of things, have mixed with kids from every corner of the earth, every religion and every kind of background.

They're now at RG universities and mixing with a generally "posher" set but their school experience has left them both with a great social conscience and awareness - DD especially was shocked when she first went to Uni at how blinkered to "real-life" many of the privately educated kids were.

Do not worry. Your DC will be fine.

I think a parent so rude as to say they would never send their kid to the local school, particularly in response to you saying you plan to do just that, deserves the response that you wouldn't dream of being so (expletive deleted) rude about her/their choice. Or "thank you for sharing your opinion", "I talked to my kids about where they'd like to go". But absolutely no one who lived near it would consider the primary I sent my kids to, and several people turned up their noses at the secondary, and the mixed ability Maths.

If he gets the predicted grades in Maths and Science at tonight's parent's evening and improves a bit on some of the others (and I don't think teaching is the problem here) I will be gloating, and I will say he got these grades at his school. If not, it's probably not because I didn't send him to a "better" primary or secondary - which I think is often used as code for a school with "better" kids.

Tonight I'm also panicking that he hasn't done his Maths homework at 11.15 and I can't get him to turn off Netflix and go and do it, but I don't think he would be any different if I'd sent him to school in a middle class area, honestly.

And I like that he lives a few minutes from school - one of his friends is on the same street, two are literally on the road our little street is off, and a lot of the others are within 5-20 minutes walk from school. A few are further away. If he goes out I'm reassured that he's likely to be walking/getting the bus home with people who live so nearby that he's not even walking 5 mins from the bus stop alone - more like 30 seconds. He will have to travel to get to post 16 education next year.

Next year you won't be seeing these parents at the school gate or probably anywhere else, unless there are some nicer ones who are not so rude even if they do choose private/selective education or schools in "better" areas.

@elkiedee spot on. And yes the Netflix arguments are universal

Why does everyone think you don’t make life king friends at a private school? Of course you do.

@BeethovenNinth
Your DC are presumably not intending to be drugs councellors or rehab staff then? Or social workers? The people who help others, instead of calling them out, might come from all walks of life. In fact a teacher of RE, who taught DD2 in a prep, lost a son to drug addiction and wrote a book about his life. Who would have thought such a lovely family could be faced with that tragedy? Drugs can affect very many people and although I can see your DC have been exposed to children with a chaotic lifestyle, despite being in the state system, they are revolted by what they have seen. Privately educated Dc would not feel much different so mixing with these Dc hadn’t produced much empathy. It’s produced revulsion.

Just want to say I have sent my kids to private and to state school and I’d never ever speak like this to anyone.

It sounds like you are surrounded by weirdos.