Removing charitable status for independent schools

[justanotherdaduser]

What do people here think of Labour policy of removing charitable status for private schools?

I am conflicted about it.

DD goes to a London independent and if in three years or so fees rise by 20%, it will not be easy for us.

But that's just our personal circumstances, and while I will be unhappy if fees go up by 20%, I can also see the point Labour is making -

that the school our DD goes to and hundreds of others like it are not really a charity. Most spend no more than 10% of their fee income on bursaries, if that. Vast majority of parents who send children there are comfortably above national average income. The charitable status is an anomaly and independent schools don't deserve tax breaks reserved for charities.

So was wondering how others feel about it.

(Applogies if this is not the right forum. I am mostly a lurker here and wasn't sure what's the best place to post this. Happy to move this somewhere more appropriate if required)

Most were, some lEA authorities chose to keep the system, hence the scramble to LEAs that still have them.

You blatantly and knowingly lied. He went to the school in the days of the tripartite system, as did many working class children. The grammar system was available to all back then, nothing like today's setup. It became fee paying to new pupils after he was already there and his family never paid fees. You deliberately tried to conflate his experience with your claims of hypocrisy aimed at other Labour politicians, in entirely different circumstances. Don't pretend otherwise, you've already made a fool of yourself.

You think? Nope this is just to have a crack at Rishi Sunak!

I see they are now rowing back on the losing charitable status point ‘complex legally ‘ will ‘need a lot of detailed work to structure it properly’ .

My guess is that they will also park the school fees and VAT once they get in because if the difficulty of making education a vatable supply as it would also catch universities, nurseries etc and the problem that currently because of the exempt supply of education independent schools suffer shedloads of VAT that they can’t recover, if they just make fees vatable they will open the doors to massive reclaims by the very schools they want to punish . An alternative would be a surcharge equivalent to VAT levied in effectively the parents.

as I said before it’s all hot air .

I give up! You should be called Hobbit not Hobbi...I'm back to my crochetting

It was in fact the Tories that caused the woeful state of state education.

Maggie destroyed the grammar system, which led to a stark choice between selective private schools and non-selective state schools and all the exam results that implies for many parents around the country.

Private schools have had a boom time since Thatcher killed off more grammar schools than other.

The below article is written in that woke loving, Tofu munching paper the Spectator, so hardly left leaning.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/bad-grammar/

I would be interested to know how many of those that support the removal of charity status from independent schools, would support changes to the admissions policies of state schools so parents don’t purchase access to Ofsted Outstanding schools, grammars etc. by buying expensive homes nearby / in catchment. Would you support a lottery for state school places with preference given to Pupil Premium children?

I'd support a lottery system yes. Why wouldn't I?

The two things are incomparable

I would be happy to support greater prioritisation within education system in general for pupils deemed in need, though.

Although it is usually parents from independent schools who moan loudest about any form of contextual offers in HE...

I'd support a lottery system yes. Why wouldn't I?

I wouldn't, for environmental reasons. Congestion, air pollution and fuel consumption would all increase as more journeys were made. And if you're unlucky in the lotteries for all your local schools, your DC could end up with a gopping journey and a long school day.

Plus it would cause more stress on council budgets if they had to provide more free school transport for those who did not qualify for their closest schools

Yes I support changes to the admissions systems of state schools but fundamentally I support a properly funded education for all children. I think comprehensives with excellent streaming are the way forward and I think lottery system at secondary level would be great - but it would rely on a functioning public transport system so it is all pies in the sky!
what I don’t support is hypocrisy.
Don’t particularly like Sunak but if anything he is a poster boy for aspiration- middle class Indian parents who pushed him into excellent education, he then married rich, and now he runs the country. Don’t really see much difference between him and Starmer in terms of background privilege.

What I am most pissed off about is that all kids deserve a good education and this is just another classic distraction bollocks.

@SisterGabriel they are going to work in state schools. The teachers will need to improve first though, many private school ones are sub par.

Exactly. It’s not as straightforward as saying “we will remove their charitable status so the parents have to pay VAT on fees”. There are already lots of private schools which are not charities and they don’t have to charge VAT under the current legislation. It’s a populist policy which may ultimately be unworkable, or may backfire with unintended consequences.

I absolutely agree that all kids deserve the best education but taking away the charitable status and adding vat to fees will not better the state system. The state system will be stretched to the point that it cannot cope.

The state system is in such a mess because of a massive lack of funding and lack of discipline.

If it is lack of funding, then this VAT input will help.

The ISC figures have been debunked, they are bollocks.

Most private school children change school at the end of year 6, or year 11. At this point parents will take up state if they have to cough up 3-4K a year more.

Mine just went to 6th form. We stayed as he got a discount, but I’d would have happily moved him to our state college. If I’d have had to pay 4K vat, there’s no way he would be staying.

Most people whose DC are in the middle of the school will try and suck it up until the next “change” where people leave, new students come, for least disruption e.g. year 7 and year 12. At the other end, parents just won’t sign up for reception, it will be just too much money.

So, I would have to pay £3,600 extra a year, but the govt. would have to pay £5 600 to educate mine in state. If a significant amount of people leave private, the government may well be out of pocket with the scheme.

@Smurfma - really? State schools are going to employ armies of groundsmen? You get the odd bloke from the council cutting the grass every now and again. There won’t be jobs for them in state schools. All the chefs and catering staff used for breakfast, lunch and supper in private schools will find vacancies in state schools? Hardly.

@SisterGabriel there's a massive labour shortage in the UK at the moment, no one would have any problems finding jobs in catering or gardening.

And it's not as if private schools are going to close down overnight. The ones near me are so unbelievably competitive, they could fill their places many times over with those who can pay. If they're not able to keep going as they are then they would very likely become academies.

@SisterGabriel every hospitality business in my area is looking for that kind of staff.

Oh really well I hope you’re right. And they can park abolishing HoL too. Then whoever gets in pretty much the same.

If you look at a lot of ofsted reports where schools are RI or worse, it’s not necessarily a funding issue. It’s usually a quality of staff issue and poor leadership. Heads paid £90,000 plus being pretty useless. I think money directed into the right areas might help somewhat but great teachers shun certain schools snd poor leadership is a very big reason. It’s going to take a long time to get some of these people out of the system snd better leadership in our schools. Then all schools might be good.

@TizerorFizz So much easier to get rid of crap heads in the private sector. Although there are a few around our parts who are dire and have run their privates in to the position where they must be about 5 sets of school fees away from closure.

@Smurfma
Yes but only if the governors recognise the head is crap. Often they don’t. So the problems just multiply. Usually a disastrous ofsted brings about change in the state sector but it’s difficult when the calibre of slt needed is in short supply. Private schools have only themselves to blame. DDs old prep “moved on” the head but she refused to leave the head’s house! Fun and games there for a year!!

@TizerorFizz Blimey that sounds like a nightmare. What a strange person she must have been. Usually its more like sacking the CEO of a company in the private sector - income is down, off they must go. So much movement of heads in the private sector compared to when I was young.

@Smurfma
Yes. That’s exactly what was happening. They did sort it out - and they needed to. New head restored equilibrium and the school grew and is now back to its hugely successful
self. As you can imagine, school gossip was on overdrive! But it illustrates it’s not always easy to get rid of anyone.