Removing charitable status for independent schools

[justanotherdaduser]

What do people here think of Labour policy of removing charitable status for private schools?

I am conflicted about it.

DD goes to a London independent and if in three years or so fees rise by 20%, it will not be easy for us.

But that's just our personal circumstances, and while I will be unhappy if fees go up by 20%, I can also see the point Labour is making -

that the school our DD goes to and hundreds of others like it are not really a charity. Most spend no more than 10% of their fee income on bursaries, if that. Vast majority of parents who send children there are comfortably above national average income. The charitable status is an anomaly and independent schools don't deserve tax breaks reserved for charities.

So was wondering how others feel about it.

(Applogies if this is not the right forum. I am mostly a lurker here and wasn't sure what's the best place to post this. Happy to move this somewhere more appropriate if required)

@Xenia I have always pictured you as Hyacinth Bucket

As discussed elsewhere, some of the points on the programme are valid but it’s very much scraping the surface. The presenter went to a partially selective school. Maybe it wasn’t when he went of course?! Then Cambridge. Like many of his heritage, he aimed high.

I think the big issue with making school fees 20% more expensive is that it cuts out those who feel they really cannot afford this for 4/18 or 11/18. It will remove some from the private schools. The private schools will simply be the schools the pretty well off go to. Fewer ordinary folk. The rich will afford them and they will never use state schools. So this makes the schools more elite.

The other issue will be that they really won’t improve failing schools by this policy. People with a certain amount of money will move to the best school catchment areas. It’s inevitable. It’s already very obvious in my
county that this happens. Leafy lane all
the way! The upwardly mobile parents will get Dc into the best schools. The others often cannot attract the best SLT or teachers. It’s a cycle that’s been evident for decades. Areas of deprivation won’t attract the former private school parent.

The biggest way to change a child's outcome in life is through education. If all the wealthy had to send their kids to local schools you would soon see a big improvement in the standard of education offered.

What about wealthy adults moving into deprived areas and starting neighbourhood schemes and campaigns to enhance their poor neighbours’ living conditions too by giving voice to them? And sending their children to the schools in those deprived areas, and being ‘pushy’ with their demands?

I'm sure that would happen but still preferable to the present system. Money and resources should be targeted at the worst preforming schools. One of the biggest goals should be to try and ensure all kids have access to a good standard of education.

By school age some children are already years behind. To bring about change I think targeted help ( nutrition, advice, financial help, very good nurseries) for deprived families from conception on is vital.

Then poor children would need to be bussed from their areas to better schools, or their schools made into top quality remedial schools with smaller classes and better resources, breakfast clubs, homework clubs, art, music drama sport etc £5000 pp
per annum certainly wouldn’t be enough.

That’s pretty spiteful!
As far as I know Xenia always remains polite.
Would you be as insulting to some of the posters on here who give as good as they get?

Nothing polite about slamming someone’s diction.

Actually it’s important to be fully understood. Diction does matter. Maybe not for some jobs but articulating the spoken word accurately is vital in some areas of work. Try being taught by someone who cannot explain something because they are not speaking clearly. It’s important to celebrate differences but we all need to understand what’s being said. I don’t care if it’s a doctor, teacher or lawyer. It matters.

TizerorFiz · Today 16:30
Actually it’s important to be fully understood. Diction does matter. Maybe not for some jobs but articulating the spoken word accurately is vital in some areas of work. Try being taught by someone who cannot explain something because they are not speaking clearly. It’s important to celebrate differences but we all need to understand what’s being said. I don’t care if it’s a doctor, teacher or lawyer. It matters.

Speaking clearly does matter. It has nothing to do with local accents either. There is a current reverse snobbery going on at the moment where obviously ‘posh’ people are dropping t s here and there and throwing in a few glottal stops. There are some radio and television announcers slurring and rushing words and leaving off endings too.

In life speaking clearly and with confidence is invaluable in a variety of roles.

Yes I was alluding to this earlier but it’s early years that are key.

There’s only so much things can be changed though, through information or extra provision. It has to be taken up and behaviour has to change - which is hard to influence.

I like Xenia. She writes with a lot of personality, which is interesting.

Hyacinth Bucket was very funny. She also (the actress who played her ) was a very good singer ( ) and I sing every day so may be it is apt...... although I am not sure I try to play up that I am a different class than I am as I have nothing to prove so I am probably not quite as similar to the character played......
However I still have to switch off programmes all the time because I cannot standing listening to people droppings their Ts or not speaking clearly - my loss of course as I have to go off and do something else.

Xenia · Today 21:58
I cannot standing listening to people droppings their Ts or not speaking clearly

I can’t stand people appropriating the dropping of ts and slurring as an affectation, just out of studied, intentional ‘carelessness’, which seems to be the current fashion and drive.

In my opinion too, schools should teach clear speaking through reading out loud, reciting poetry, and discussions.

I don’t think you seem like Hyacinth, or think it is OK to suggest that you, Xenia, a stranger on the internet, are like a character to be made fun of.

DH worked for a Chinese company for many years. He was told many times by his Chinese coworkers that their wish list for the best things in life included a German built car, a Japanese TV and education in the English system for their children.

@Pottedpalm - but that is a top independent school education, right? No rich Chinese person living in China is aspiring to send their kid to the state school comp are they. Because let’s face it - state school education in China is pretty good.

So it is a brand - the private school thing. Eton makes it even more exclusive by limiting overseas students to about 10 per cent max (if that is still a thing). I guess even if it just becomes a school for rich foreigners with 20 VAT on top (now the pound is so weak, it isn’t going to hurt them anyway as most save in US Dollars and gold too) - they will probably just see it as a place to network amongst the global rich (as the power of Britain the UK diminishes further). And if the UK government (whoever they are) does away with independent schools surviving, many will just go set up shop in other countries, using their brand.

So back to killing off anything British that has a name. Let’s continue down the path of self destruction.

And if the UK government (whoever they are) does away with independent schools surviving, many will just go set up shop in other countries, using their brand.

How will pupils from UK be prevented from attending these overseas schools? No doubt a way will be found.

@Aleaiactaest people pay VAT on luxury exportable goods like cars and Tv’s and should on exportable education too.

The supply of education is in no way akin to the supply of luxury goods - it is the supply of services which is exempt under all EU countries. The EC VAT Directive states that the following supplies are exempt from VAT:
“the provision of children’s or young people’s education, school or university eduction, vocational training or retraining, including the supply of services and of goods closely linked thereto, by bodies governed by public law having such as their aim or by other organisations recognised by the Member State concerned as having similar objects;
tuition given privately by teachers and covering school or university education..”
EC VAT Directive 2006, Article 132 (i) – (j).

So all our neighbours would not charge VAT on educational services.

Which countries do charge VAT on educational services and if so, at what rate? Please someone show some precedent first.

They need to stop with the luxury brand advertising and PR then.

There is an interesting article in the Sunday Telegraph by Peter Lampo and Graham Brady. (Peter Lampl is the founder and chairman of the Sutton Trust.)

”Imposing VAT on private school fees would make the U.K. more unequal”

”Open Access is a better way to give a world-class education to poorer children”

I don’t have a share token but have taken photos of the article in the newspaper. It may be they are in right-to-left order.

Here is a related article
Private school VAT ‘will hit social mobility’
by Will Hazel Political correspondent.

Labour’s plan to tax private schools will worsen inequities in education, the founder of Britain’s leading social mobility charity has said.

Sir Peter Lampl, founder and chairman of the Sutton Trust, said that the ‘Robin Hood-style” policy of charging VAT on school fees would make independent schools the preserve of the “super-rich”.

Here is a related article, by Will Hazel in the Sunday Telegraph today.
Private school VAT ‘will hit social mobility’

Labour’s plan to tax private schools will worsen inequities in education, the founder of Britain’s leading social mobility charity has said.

Sir Peter Lampl, founder and chairman of the Sutton Trust, said that the “Robin Hood-style” policy of charging VAT on school fees would make independent schools the preserve of the “super rich”

See attached photo of the page.