Removing charitable status for independent schools

[justanotherdaduser]

What do people here think of Labour policy of removing charitable status for private schools?

I am conflicted about it.

DD goes to a London independent and if in three years or so fees rise by 20%, it will not be easy for us.

But that's just our personal circumstances, and while I will be unhappy if fees go up by 20%, I can also see the point Labour is making -

that the school our DD goes to and hundreds of others like it are not really a charity. Most spend no more than 10% of their fee income on bursaries, if that. Vast majority of parents who send children there are comfortably above national average income. The charitable status is an anomaly and independent schools don't deserve tax breaks reserved for charities.

So was wondering how others feel about it.

(Applogies if this is not the right forum. I am mostly a lurker here and wasn't sure what's the best place to post this. Happy to move this somewhere more appropriate if required)

Dd is an independent school because she has autism and really benefits from small classes, pastoral care and teachers who know her. The state school she would’ve gone to had 210 kids in a year and would’ve been overwhelming.

The waiting time for EHCPs in our county seems to be over a year even though it’s meant to be 20 weeks and even then most get rejected until appeal when 95% get approved. The SEN system in this country is inadequate. So I would support Labour adding VAT to indie schools AFTER they had sorted out the awful situation with SEN children.

DD isn’t alone, many of her friends have autism / adhd too and are in private schools.

I agree with charitable status being removed - they aren't charities and they don't do charitable activities. Why should they benefit from all the tax breaks that being a charity brings?

Sixth form colleges have to pay VAT. It can't therefore be right or fair that private schools are considered charities. How can the government justify that difference? They have only recently decided not to remove VAT for sixth forms so they can't blame past governments.

Yup, should be removed.

I think it will be pretty awful if Labour do that. There is a pretty high proportion of kids at independent schools on bursaries, they will all go back to the state system. Added to that, with the fees going up, many full paying kids will have to go into the state system too.

The state system is already stretched and it will make private schools more elitist because only the very wealthy will be able to afford them.

Ps - Most private schools also allow community groups to use their facilities, swimming pools, halls etc. Where will they all go?

I think instead perhaps they should be made to act a lot more like charities. Far more means tested places. Far more opening up their facilities and staff to be shared with state schools

It feels petty. I know the idea is that they spend any tax gain on improving state education, but I bet it won't happen. The money will just end up plugging holes in the NHS and social care, and children will be soon be forgotten about.

A better policy would be to make state schools so good that parents don't have to consider private. I'd vote for that!

@stealthninjamum , thanks, yes, didn't think of that. SEN support in DD's school is indeed very good (based on what some parents say). If the policy results in many such DC going to state sector where support isn't adequate, that is a net negative outcome.

A decent education should be the right of all children - not just those whose parents can afford it.

I would absolutely support the removal of charitable status - on the proviso that all the money raised would be ploughed into our woefully funded state education system

Schools need to be more transparent about the number of children on bursaries and scholarships . People know so little about this including the parents there. Prove how much they've benefited society.

It's going to increase state school sizes when parents fold because it's unaffordable.

My son goes to a independent SEN school. State do not provide any school like his, and its not unique to just his school. If this comes in, the fear is his and other SEN schools will close.

No amount of the money in the world will enable these kids to be educated. I could a million pounds a year to spend on fees, I couldn't buy my way of the end of my kids education.

I can't see any LA being able to provide such specialist provisions.

It's complex

Is there not an argument that they're saving the public purse. Where I live the local schools are oversubscribed, if some didn't pay for private education I'm not sure how the funded schools would cope.

@Beansontoast45, any idea typically what percentage are on bursaries nationally?

I have fairly narrow idea about North West / West London indies. Was looking into their annual reports last year when selecting a school for DD, and turned out most spend no more than 10% (usally less than 10%) of their fee income on bursaries. I was surprised by how low it was, but this could be just a London thing and maybe nationally independent schools spend more on bursaries? I don't really know.

I think that to remove charitable status is a good thing and they should be open to the same checks and measures as state schools in a move to readdress some of the inequalities that exist within our education system.

Education is systemically unfair and to make some moves towards levelling the system is a good move.

Re: sen students and poor provision in mainstream - I am certain there are ways that funding allocated for state sen education could be redirected to part way subsidise the removal of charitable status for those with who are making a choice based on need and not just want.

They aren't really charities are they, so yes I would support it.

"I can also see the point Labour is making - that the school our DD goes to and hundreds of others like it are not really a charity."

That is basically how I see it. Charitable status is a privilege granted to charities, to aid them in their charitable work. It should not be granted to non-charities.

estimated that 90,000 private school pupils will enter state system if this 20% increase to fees has to be applied

I dont mind them having charitable status. I think its a useful business structure to ensure fees are ploughed back in for the benefit of the pupils and not for personal /shareholder profit. I dont think the status is that valuable as increasingly new indepedent schools dont register as a charity. There is a significant independent SEN sector too.

I am less sure about vat on fees. I dont think it will raise as much as expected if its 20% particularly as then the schools can claim some VAT back on spend. I guess they will do a 5% VAT to say they have charged vat, then maybe over a long period of time increase it.

I am a little confused by the reporting on this and the way Labour are presenting it. I thought that the issues of charitable status and VAT were distinct but they seem to be conflated in the reports that I have heard. It's not quite clear to be exactly what they are proposing.

My desperate hope is that at the next election we have the possibility of a government that takes an evidence-based approach to policy and values sound decision-making over ideologically motivated divisive policies. To me this is the litmus test of whether Labour can do that. If they can demonstrate that this is based on sound analysis, full costing an considered decision-making then I could support them. If they are throwing the (some) children's education under a bus for political point-scoring and throwing red meat to the left wing of the party then I'm back to the drawing board.

In an ideal world yes of course. In the real world, no, of course not.

Sam Freedman has debunked a lot of the claims around the cost of removing charitable status from private schools here:

www.newstatesman.com/quickfire/2022/11/daily-mail-private-schools-education-class-labour

I think there is an over reliance on the private sector for children with SEN. That can't be solved quickly and the state system has failed miserably. Longer term they need to sort this out but shorter term they need to make sure SEN children in the private sector aren't impacted if there are tax changes.

This

clymene I agree with you, a decent education should be the right of all children, and I can’t wait to see how Labour improve things for kids with SEN. I’m lucky I can afford school fees if they add VAT, but I also know people whose parents support them and also an increasing number of people whose private school is paid for by their local authority with an EHCP, acknowledgment that there are no better state schools for that child.