rubbish local secondary school choices - London - did you end up moving?

[080878tukh]

DC is currently in yr 2 in a local London primary and all our local secondary options are quite rubbish. Contemplating whether it's worth moving - but with things as they are - not really the right time interest rate/house prices wise. I guess our dilemma is not unusual for London - we are only in the catchment of one single sex school that is really not very good. Not sure that DC would pass an entrance exam for the local private schools - that have become incredibly competitive of late. For those who decided to stay or move - do you think it was worth it either way?

As far as I am aware, everyone who is awarded a full music or sports scholarship is pretty much certain to be offered a place by the start of term?

You can't say that there aren't other school options locally though. Masses of schools in South London.

Where we live, it's almost an hour to the nearest secondary school and that is in special measures and over 30 teachers left at the end of last year. Next closest is over an hour but with only one not awfully reliable way to get there. Hence we applied for every school with music aptitude places in London that DD could feasibly get to.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow the problem with the lottery system at Kingsdale is that it's the only state secondary in SE21 so while there are plenty of other schools in South London as the admissions are usually distance based if locals don't get in they aren't guaranteed a place in the next nearest school (ie somewhere like Charter) because they live to far away.

Charter does seem to have a ridiculously small PAN

@OhCrumbsWhereNow Charter is rather teeny tiny.
Thinking about the scholarships - they must offer more than is available at first because I know a child who was offered one but decided to go to a different school so her spot must have gone to someone on a waiting list.
I may be completely wrong about that.

I think in practice, we are only in the catchment/distance to FHB - and Kingsdale by lottery. We are too far for Charter, Harris, Pendergast or others. I wouldnt rely on us getting Kingsdale because it's such an unknown. I wonder why there is such a dearth of local schools that boys can go to around here.

@080878tukh there must be a bit of a unbalance of schools for boys as a couple of the boys schools in the area have turned in co-ed but the 'sister' schools have stayed all girls.

@NeedmorelegoI guess, like in Honor Oak - there is a mixed school and a girls' school. Forest Hill is one of each.

I think it's also the fact that there is currently little overlap between catchments/distances. And I cant believe Kingsdale isnt local. It's ridiculous because local kids are not particularly well served at all

It is a bit of a funny area for schools, but Sedgehill and Deptford Green take everyone currently, and Prendergast Vale has a wide area. I know they aren’t local. But I guess that must be where some people go?

Handy Lewisham school distance map: lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/education/schools/school-admission/applying-to-start-secondary-school/school-admission-distance-map

Prendergast Ladywell also on the up if you're in the honor oak side

They over-offer knowing that there's a lot who will go to private schools or other secondaries.

When DD sat the scholarship there were a couple of hundred applicants I reckoned. Ditto at places like Camden School for Girls and Hatcham New Cross Gate. (At Kingsdale you do get to do all parts of the test - so the MAT, the performance part and the aural tests. The other two, you had to sit the MAT first and only high scorers were invited back).

From what I can work out for KFS, for both music and sport, applicants are ranked by score. The top 15 or so are basically guaranteed a place on offers day. Then if someone goes elsewhere, that place goes to the next on the list and so on. If you don't get a place on offers day then you can get one via either the lottery place or because you are next on the scholarship list. If you get a lottery place but were eligible for a scholarship then you get the scholarship too but doesn't affect the scholarship list (if that makes sense).

You can get a full scholarship, half scholarship or a G&T offer. Afaik all full scholarship offers tend to get a place offer (but might not be on offers day) and about half the half-scholarships. I don't think it gets down as far as G&T, so those tend to be via the lottery system.

Hi OP, there are some interesting demographic changes happening at the moment which may mean state secondary schools which your DS would be unlikely to gain a place at currently may be available to him in the future. In parallel, some common behaviour patterns such as moving out of inner London into the outer London boroughs or targeting grammars / top performing non-selective schools in the Home Counties may be less likely to be successful at gaining the desired place in the future. If you want to consider the independent sector, schools such as Dulwich, Colfe’s, Whitgift etc. may offer generous bursaries. Going slightly off-piste, you could also consider one of the many state day / boarding schools such as Cranbrook School, Co-Ed grammar in Kent and Holyport College in Windsor & Maidenhead.

I would take any school in London over what we have in the north west. Our highest performing schools have 25% English and Maths at grade 5+. You are all so lucky to live in London and have what we would consider decent schools. They get so much more money pumped into them and have better teachers.
I honestly can’t understand why people in London complain so much. You don’t realise what you have.

You can get a full scholarship, half scholarship or a G&T offer. Afaik all full scholarship offers tend to get a place offer (but might not be on offers day) and about half the half-scholarships. I don't think it gets down as far as G&T, so those tend to be via the lottery system.

Why on earth do Kingsdale make it so complicated? Seems over the top. Must be very frustrating for families who live nearby.

Isn’t it one of those things where by putting barriers / complications into admissions procedures, you effectively weed out those least able to negotiate those barriers and thus you select out the families with most difficulties and select for those who are literate, determined and interested? Also mystique - by making access difficult and complex, the thing you attain is perceived to have more value?

(See also eg religious schools where evidence of church attendance or early baptism is required - it effectively selects non-chaotic, organised families who can organise a baptism and know they will be in one place every Sunday for 6 months…. and are interested enough to know it is required)

Thus back door selection- which by even slightly skewing the entry profile, improves results and thus reputation.

Yes, if you look at the stats for Kingsdale it has a higher percentage of 'prior high attainers' (those at the top level when they leave primary) than other schools - because of the hoops to jump through - which are frankly a right pain. They really do have a huge percentage of the local high-achieving children.

If you look at how these 'high attainers' do though, they make 'negative' progress (ie less than similar children at other schools), whereas they make positive progress at Forest Hill Boys and Sydenham Girls, I think. High prior attainers and both Forest Hill and Sydenham get better grades at GCSE according to the Attainment 8 measure.

Make of that what you will. I have friends who are very happy with Kingsdale and DD2 did originally really want to go there - but only got a half scholarship and no place. She wouldn't switch when a place came up though, because she has good friends where she is.

And remembering that yes, people in many areas of the country would love to have any of our local schools on their doorstep is really important. London parents are luckier than they know!

Yes exactly this. I find it very annoying so I doubt we'll bother with them, despite being close by. Plus I really felt it was quite run down when we had the tour.

Before they brought in the lottery system, and the scholarships, Kingsdale was the school everyone wanted to avoid even if they lived opposite. Have a read of the newspaper articles from the early 2000s. They pretty much had their own dedicated police officers! There is a reason why the HT made the choices he did on the admissions system.

Now people want it to be like other schools and admit on distance and be a 'local school'.

Also agree that people in London don't know how lucky they are on schools compared with most of the rest of the country. Even the ones people dislike are doing hugely better than a lot of sought after schools elsewhere.

Yes that idea that London schools need to be avoided is nearly deduct now (I don’t know all though)

It’s probably due to rising costs of living here and more having to choose state. The overall effect s raised standards

Per pupil funding in London has been hugely higher than elsewhere for many years, which along with high -profile campaigns to improve London’s state schools and the fact they are on the Government’s front doorstep has led to higher standards. The fact the employment opportunities have also been so much more visible and prevalent in the capital (compared with eg coastal towns or ex industrial areas in the North) has also improved standards because there is something ‘worth working for’, in a way that there isn’t for the third generation of workless families in Skelmersdale…..

I’ve got big gaps and live in SE London and I’ve really notice the difference over time. When my oldest was starting school many went private or just moved. For my second what you could call MC parents stopped doing this so much.

Now where I am it’s a either a bun fight - eg the new Charter nodal point was hotly contested at public consultation and people spend a lot via house prices to get in. The primaries in SE23 are well thought of and some people move to be close to them.

I’m glad to read good stuff re Sydenham Girls, I’m not sure of the catchment area but dc on my street go

As someone has said I think there will be a lot of changes with secondary schools in SE areas in a few years. Some Southwark primary schools have become undersubscribed and will possibly be closing due to large amounts of families moving out the area (especially around Elephant and Castle way) this in turn will affect the secondaries in a few years.
@080878tukh as your boy is only Year 2 by the time he is secondary age it could all be completely different in the area.

I'm in SE3 and reading with interest. DC still young but wondering what we'll do when the time comes. Like OP we would not be keen on single sex and we're not religious. Lots from Blackheath seem to do Kent grammars but we don't want the pressure. The options round here are John Roan (was closed down but now reopened), and Thomas Tallis.

I'm near-ish you and my only addition to others' comments is to suggest you speak to parents of current students - you must have some on your street / friends of friends?

My nearest secondary has been mentioned twice on this thread - Haberdashers Hatcham. I have to say, from the outside - and I see a lot of the school and its students - I absolutely do not get the appeal. I think it had its heyday some time ago and its OFSTED rating back in the mists of time. But I also know a good number of friends with kids there, including the sort of people who could put their money where their mouth is, and I know some of the high-achieving kids through an after-school activity - and tbh if DD was in Y6 today I think I'd send her. There's plenty wrong with it but lots of good. Try to get a clearer, more current picture of FHB.