Talk me down re school choice

[Schoolunsure2]

Hello, sorry it's a long one but I'm really stuck.

2 DDs, yr5 and 3, both exceptionally bright, wanting to be doctors/ engineers etc. Eldest talented all rounder, v musical and sporty, youngest not so much but probably brighter with maths.

We're all v happy in our house and don't want to move. Moving to a better catchment area would cost more than private school x2 (in SE).

The local school (walkable)has a v caring reputation, good for SEN. But, having looked at GCSEs, only 30% get 5s in maths and English, and only 68% of those with high prior achievement get 5s, which I think is really disappointing.

Other school in catchment is a short bus ride away, much better for bright kids (especially girls) but has a bad rep for bullying.

There is a girls' grammar but that's 40 minutes away by bus, exceptional results but lots of stress and pressure.

I know it's sensible to just send them to the local school where they will be fine. But it will be so hard for them to get top grades there.

There are a few local private schools but it would be a real stretch.

There is a wildcard of a top public school half an hour drive away who have offered both scholarships but this would still cost us £20k a year and absorb any future pay rises/ inheritance and leave us really tight, plus kids would have no local friends.

Any advice greatly appreciated
Thanks

If you have the money for private but it would be a stretch then you have the money to supplement a state school with private tutoring if needed.

Prep for the grammar to keep options open.
Look into all the schools more. Reputations can be misleading.

Remember that this years results will be impacted by covid. Different schools will have been differently impacted even in the same area. For example were they already set up for online learning, parental jobs, parental income, unlucky on covid surges through school etc.

Does your local school have kids getting top grades? If so then it is clearly possible, even if on average the cohort doesn't.

You have another year to decide. Take your time.

Visit the schools - hopefully on open days there will be the chance to speak to current students and staff. You will get a feel for the school, find out if they have STEM and Medicine programs. Honestly though, now my children are adults I would say the most important thing is that they are happy at their school. Happy students will thrive wherever they are, and as a pp said, you can always have some extra tutoring if you feel they need it to improve their grades.

I think visit and decide for yourself re; bullying and stress/pressure. Often these are unfounded rumours. 40 minutes isn't a massive journey to a secondary school, particularly if the transport is straightforward. It sounds like the private might be too much of a stretch - fees rise annually usually too and there are extra trips etc (your kids don't have to do these but it's a bit miserable if all of their friends are off on the £2K ski trip and they're not).

If your dc are naturally bright then they'll be able to keep up with the pace at the Grammar school and will find like minded friends. Unless the private is highly selective, then there will be a wider academic spread which might not be challenging enough. You can then re-assess your position at sixth form.

I’d go private or for the scholarship. I really don’t think tutoring is the answer here.

Well I feel better that there are mixed responses already as it's clearly not an obvious one. Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it's a nice problem to have. I think I've just had my head turned as we see so many of the private and grammar school kids in our extra curricular activities.

Hopeful bump in case anyone else has any ideas? Thanks

If you’ve got a grammar in the area that will skim off a lot of the really able kids, which might be why the results at the comp are lower than you’d like.

investigate the bullying at second school - why does it have the rep? What are its processes? Is it an outdated rep? What do current students and parents say? Amy mention of it in Ofsted? If you can be reassured, this could be the best option, but otherwise go for your local school. You can supplement with tutors, supra curricular if needed.

40 mins twice a day is too long a commute imo, especially in a grammar where it’s potentially stressful in the day and also more likely to have substantial homework amounts. Plus what if there’s traffic, delays, diversions…it wouldn’t take much to bump it up to 2 hours a day travel which isn’t fair on kids and will limit their options for socialising, extra curriculars, volunteering and jobs later on.

Thank you, yes that's what I'm worried about re the grammar. I just hate the thought of limiting them when I think they'd be capable of the top grades with the right environment.

Out of what you've said I'd go for the school a short bus ride away. It has good results, is still fairly local and they are likely to have a few local friends.

If bullying is the main negative, then that can happen anywhere, even in grammars/private/comps.

I'd also prepare for the grammar school because why not. Good to have options.

I would probably rule out the top public school if it really will be a stretch financially and it's far away by car. There might likely be private school buses running, but they would take longer due to making stops and also there's the walk to and from the school bus stop itself to factor in.

Thank you I think that's a really good point, there will be a decent amount of people we know there.

And agree about keeping options open re grammar ( in a non pressured way)

I also think you're right about the public school, although we were charmed by them it would be impractical, and potentially 7 days a week with sports etc which would have a huge impact.

If there's a chance in a few years time that you'll regret not stretching yourself to take the private option and thinking "if only..." then you should reconsider that. It was really tough when we did it but the best thing we ever did and it gave our kids an amazing start. We did have to skip some holidays and car upgrades but was totally worth it

There's every chance that I'll regret it! I know lots of parents sacrifice so much for their children's education and I feel lazy and guilty for not wanting to. Plus I do get sad when I see what even the local private school offers in terms of facilities, orchestras etc and my kids are missing out when they are so talented ( not a unique viewpoint I know, the whole system is unfair and we are v lucky).

A few thoughts:

1. I agree with your concerns about results in the local school.

2. 40 minutes isn't that far for children to travel at secondary age. It'll feel like a lot right now, as your eldest is only in Y5, but by the time she is 16, it would feel like nothing. I would be more wary if it was a "one bus a day" sort of deal which would limit extracurriculars.

3. In terms of the school where you are concerned about bullying, what sources do you have for this? Is there a recent ofsted? Have you spoken to a lot of parents? I think at any school, one child can have a really bad experience, unfortunately, and especially with social media etc, there can be a limit to what the school can do. Equally some schools are really successful at changing historical reputations.

In terms of private school, you say it would be a stretch. Have you investigated bursaries etc? Have you really investigated the private schools? They can have bullying problems, and/or be high pressure too.

Could you afford a 5-10% yearly fees rise (probably as a minimum at the moment)? Realistically, with potentially increasing energy and staffing costs, these fees will go up...

My concern with private is that you'd be sending two at the time when your elder daughter would be starting to study for GCSEs- which would be a really rubbish time for her to have to move. If it really became too much of a stretch, you might be looking at having to withdraw her in Y10 or Y11, which would not be ideal at all.

I would personally try for the grammar, with the second state school in mind as a back up. If either school didn't work out, depending on over subscription etc, you could consider a move to one of the other schools.

I wouldn't go for private unless you could comfortably afford it- especially given Labour have suggested that they would remove charitable status for private schools. This would increase fees etc, and might impact the provision of bursaries etc.

I’ve worked in a lot of secondary schools in inner city Birmingham where attainment is often low. There are still children who get 9 x grade 9s because they’re motivated, competitive and want to succeed.

Is the 40mins to grammar door to door, or is there a walk to the bus stop included ?

You really need to visit the schools and see what is the best fit for each child.

Is the grammar really pressured, or are you assuming? Regardless, the bullying sounds worrying.

My daughter is at a grammar school and it seems less pressured than the comp some of her friends have gone to. They get less homework and don't get detentions for silly misdemeanors all the time.

But also, if your children are bright and driven, they should do well anywhere. My kids are bright not driven unfortunately.

People always bring out the "bright and driven" line on mumsnet, but I think they underestimate the impact of peer group on children. Few children will stay "driven" until Y11 if their peer group aren't the same. Something like tutoring can become a real battle if DC aren't on board.

DC see themselves as doing "fine" because they are doing better than their peers. But they may still not be achieving their true potential.

Some schools (even with relatively low attainment) can achieve this, but not all. If only 30% of DC are getting 5s, then top sets may contain a wide spread of ability, and students may not be taught/pushed at the very top of this.

I'd be interested to know the progress 8 scores for the schools as well. There is a difference between a school with low attainment but great progress, and low attainment and low progress.

The progress for bright kids is -0.25 😭😭😭

@DialsMavis it would be 45 minutes door to door or 20-25 minutes if we drove her. Bus stop is just round the corner to the school gates

Of all the things I wouldn't worry about 40mins travel to the grammar school. My boys have done that journey since primary at differing schools and they just take it in their stride.

In this area all of the kids are getting buses in different directions at 7.30 in the morning - no-one thinks anything of it. (We are in grammar country - so many different schools). They've all gone by 7.50am.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl agree with you on the bright but not driven. My eldest needs an able peer group to push her, she's not the type to study endlessly by herself.

We would get a bursary for the public school but it would mean that any spare money is taken, payrises, inheritance etc, so it is a huge financial commitment. The closer private school only offers a small % off for scholarships so would need to be really sure of finances

Re the bullying, I know of some kids ( personally) having an awful time, but also plenty of friends that are happy with it, so it's not completely awful. Obviously the ones with bad stories share them more. My kids are pretty easygoing and sociable though ( not that bullied kids aren'tobviously).

If they're exceptionally bright it really wouldn't be hard to get top grades at the local school. The idea that only private or grammar school can meet their needs is ludicrous. Where it might matter is where your kids are more borderline.

@jazzandh
That's reassuring, it's just missing out on local friends I worry about. We're spoilt with a great primary school 10 minutes walk away at the moment!

@RedHelenB they're not the kind of genius kids who will teach themselves maths A level at home but I do think they're really bright. Unfortunately the bright kids at this school are barely passing their gcses so I think it would be really hard to learn to the level required for top grades. The other state schools in the area have much higher results ( only one of which we're in catchment for). I just think the school nearest is just not the right place for bright kids as their progress 8 is the lowest.

I know it's sensible to just send them to the local school where they will be fine. But it will be so hard for them to get top grades there.

Why is this sensible? Sending bright, ambitious children to a school that will flatten their aspirations and let them coast because with minimal effort they will still do okay is hardly a wise move.

I don't agree with some PPs suggestions that private tutors can make up the shortfall. They can, sort of, but what they can't undo is spending day in, day out in an environment where your peers despise enthusiasm for learning. it is soul-destroying. I went to such a school, and so did a friend and we both feel how deeply it got to us. School isn't just about grades, it's about your approach to life and to learning.

Let your DC visit all local schools and see which ones they feel right in. We did that with DC and it was astonishing. They were bored at almost all school open days after the initial look round. They hated the local grammar and surprisingly so did we. But at one school they just lingered. They were the last to leave the open day on two consecutive years. We sent them to that school and they thrived.

Talk to the public school about bursaries, scholarships and help with paying fees. Acquaint yourselves and your DC with the kind of tests they do at the local grammar (NVR? VR? Essays? etc) and make sure they are comfortable and confident with these so if you do decide to go that route, it's not a stress.