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Secondary education

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State school oxbridge bias

572 replies

confusedmommy · 26/02/2022 23:03

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

OP posts:
ThymePoultice · 03/03/2022 15:37

@casacat

People in these threads always go in about BJ and JRM as if they somehow represent children in today’s independent schools. It does my head in.

In my entire life, I be never met anybody who vaguely resembles BJ or JRM. I doubt anyone has - these men are caricatures of themselves. And my DD goes to a London day school JRM’s sister once attended (apparently)? These particular two men got into Oxbridge in the days when you could bluster through and get EE offers. It’s pointless and tiresome bringing these two up as representative of anything because those days are long gone.

You could only get an EE offer if you aced their own exam, which they trust more than A levels. Or if you could play the organ and write your name in the exam paper. Something similar still goes on, although now they want top grades and their own test results to consider too. Organ playing still cuts some corners, though.
Walkaround · 03/03/2022 15:46

@jytdtysrht

Research Boris Johnson’s full life from childhood. You will find that he was very far from “privileged” once you collect all that info.

I didn’t vote for him. I don’t like him. But to dismiss him as a toff who never suffered hardship is wishful thinking based on surface evidence.

Always materially privileged. Unstable childhood. Emotionally damaged. Sounds 100% like a typical a toff.
puffyisgood · 03/03/2022 15:50

@casacat

My son has been accepted to Cambridge this year. He is at a selective independent school. Yes he has had the benefit of teaching that’s been excellent on the whole, as well as the benefit of being surrounded by peers who pretty much all attained 9s and A*s. I don’t underestimate this! However, there is no special Oxbridge guidance in the school whatsoever. The things he talked about in one of his interviews were things he did off his own bat and nothing to do with the school.

As I understand it, at 6th form age, just over 20% of students nationally attend independent schools. So Oxbridge are looking to reflect this 80 / 20 national picture in terms of admissions. The situation is complicated by the fact that many independent schools are academically selective (some highly so) so you would naturally expect a higher proportion of those in super-selective schools to be in a position to apply anyway. In the same way, you can’t compare a selective grammar to an comprehensive and complain that more are applying to Oxbridge from grammars.

Based on the Cambridge stats from the last few years, most colleges seem to be achieving between 70-80% state intake. Obviously this hasn’t always been the case, but most colleges are already hitting their widening participation targets by the look of it.

As for the so-called ‘squeeze’ on applicants from the independent sector - well, those students such as my DS will just have to recognise that three A* from a ‘top’ school are going to look less impressive than the same grades from a low performing school and adapt accordingly. By ‘adapt’ I mean, use extra initiative - in the same way that those in low-performing schools have has to compensate for gaps in teaching or generally low standards in their schools. Students in top schools will have to ‘do more’ basically. This is the reality if it. They can go beyond the curriculum by entering essay competitions and this kind of thing. Show they have drive and determination that way. I think this is fair enough.

Also - I can only speak for Cambridge - but teachers in independent schools are still claiming that it doesn’t matter which college you apply to because the ‘Winter Pool’ will ensure that the best applicants are offered places across the university. I think this is poor advice.

In the case of applicants to Cambridge from the independent sector, college choice absolutely matters nowadays. There was a thread some time ago on MN, on which two admissions tutors admitted that independent applicants will very rarely, if ever, be taken out if the Winter Pool these days. This is because colleges now go to this pool to look for certain candidates to top up their widening participation targets. (abeit very able candidates). They are all aiming to hit the 80/20 contextualisation target and no college wants to be out of the loop here since they now mainly use the Winter Pool for this purpose. I think this has been the main shift and this is why many independent schools are noticing a downturn in their Cambridge success rates - ie a student will either be accepted into their first choice college or not at all.

As an applicant for from the independent sector, you are better off applying to a college that, in recent years, has already been receiving about 80% of its applicants from the state sector (many colleges now do, but not all). Then you can be more sure that you are not being potentially ‘squeezed out’ because of contextualisation. You can look at the admissions stats - some colleges have 80% ish state applications and 80% ish state intake - so that’s fine. Other colleges only have say, 68% state applications but are still aiming for 80% state intake. You don’t need a degree to work out which colleges independent candidates have a better chance of being accepted to.

To be clear, privately schooled candidates have a higher acceptance rate than state educated ones. But, as you say, there are a few colleges where this gap is really stark, i.e. where candidates from private schools have a much better chance of acceptance, & they're mostly the ones with the very high proportion of applications from/history of accepting many state schooled kids.
casacat · 03/03/2022 16:10

I think it’s different at Oxford, but at Cambridge. you can’t apply for organ or choral scholarships until you have been made an academic offer.

bleuvert · 03/03/2022 16:26

I'm sorry, but people didn't just 'bluster in' on EE offers. I got in on an EE offer. Still got my 4 As at A level. And I was almost certainly the least able of the cohort in my subject at my college. I also encountered JRM during my time. He was (thankfully) as much of an anomaly at Oxford as he is now.

Grinling · 03/03/2022 16:35

@bleuvert

I'm sorry, but people didn't just 'bluster in' on EE offers. I got in on an EE offer. Still got my 4 As at A level. And I was almost certainly the least able of the cohort in my subject at my college. I also encountered JRM during my time. He was (thankfully) as much of an anomaly at Oxford as he is now.
I wouldn't agree -- I overlapped with him, too, and he was certainly a type of prematurely middle-aged Tory and Union-ite. Where I used to see him most was at mass at the Oratory on Woodstock Road where there was a lot of what I thought of as 'Four-Piece-Suit Catholicism', people who wished they'd been born long before Vatican II.
casacat · 03/03/2022 16:36

Apologies - I didn’t mean to offend anyone who got an EE offer back in the day!

My point was that there is nobody like JRM really, at Oxbridge or in general life. Yet he is invariably mentioned on these threads, as is BJ.

As for that ‘Bullingdon Club’ - does it still exist? Who would want to be in that?!

bleuvert · 03/03/2022 16:47

I'm not saying there was nobody else like him at all (mainly concentrated in the Union, I agree). But the vast majority (even at my relatively 'posh' college) were nothing like him. Most of the other private school boys I knew thought he was a prat.

Grinling · 03/03/2022 16:50

@casacat

Apologies - I didn’t mean to offend anyone who got an EE offer back in the day!

My point was that there is nobody like JRM really, at Oxbridge or in general life. Yet he is invariably mentioned on these threads, as is BJ.

As for that ‘Bullingdon Club’ - does it still exist? Who would want to be in that?!

Again, I think JRM is a recognisable Oxford type, or was, of his era one hopes things have moved on somewhat. Yes, the Buller still existed the last I heard it nearly died out at one point (probably because the more cautious realised it wasn't going to necessarily do them any favours if they needed to actually look for a job), but revived.

I think like a lot of university socs, it depends who runs it at any one point, and whether they hand on in time to the next 'generation'.

And it's not even that unusual -- there are a fair few similar men-only drinking clubs, with similarly expensively stupid stipulations, uniforms etc, though a lot of those are college-specific.

I wonder if the Piers Gaveston is still going?

ThymePoultice · 03/03/2022 16:56

Apologies - I didn’t mean to offend anyone who got an EE offer back in the day!

I’m a bit too young to have been given one, but wouldn’t it have been nice? Relaxing at exam season. Like the fashion for unconditional offers 5 years ago.

Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 03/03/2022 16:57

Or if you could play the organ and write your name in the exam paper. Something similar still goes on, although now they want top grades and their own test results to consider too. Organ playing still cuts some corners, though.

As someone whose (fully state educated) son has got an organ scholarship to Oxford starting in autumn this year, I think you are talking utter bollocks. He still needed the same academic results and interviews as anyone else.

ThymePoultice · 03/03/2022 17:01

It was just the traditional organ joke. Nothing against the organists.

MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 17:29

Not like jrm but yes there are cliques of super connected very entitled extreme privileged ex public school silver spoon types who all know each other. It is why Dh friends from his course (law at Cambridge) were all (really nice) women. When I queried this he explained that the men were all twats. I ended up working with some of them and sadly he was right. His male college friends from other courses were adorable.

Newgirls · 03/03/2022 18:02

@MsTSwift

Exactly. Which is why the system needs to be nuanced to recognise this and to bring through talent. Not a shoo in for the Boris Johnson /Rees Mogg types.
Exactly this. Maybe we should say ‘fewer Rees moggs’
bleuvert · 03/03/2022 18:26

I've no problem at all with the system being levelled to make it fairer for state school students. But surely it's also true that some stereotypically arrogant public school arseholes are bloody clever and also deserve their places? Or are we going to start rejecting pupils from Oxbridge on political grounds? Or on the basis that we just don't like them very much? I'd argue that that's a very slippery slope indeed. Sure, make it a more level playing field. But if you're making it a true academic meritocracy then you can't get away from the fact that some obnoxious public school boys deserve to be there.

ThymePoultice · 03/03/2022 18:28

I don’t think there is any danger of public schoolboys disappearing from the Oxbridge colleges TBH @bleuvert

intwrferingma · 03/03/2022 18:28

@bleuvert

I've no problem at all with the system being levelled to make it fairer for state school students. But surely it's also true that some stereotypically arrogant public school arseholes are bloody clever and also deserve their places? Or are we going to start rejecting pupils from Oxbridge on political grounds? Or on the basis that we just don't like them very much? I'd argue that that's a very slippery slope indeed. Sure, make it a more level playing field. But if you're making it a true academic meritocracy then you can't get away from the fact that some obnoxious public school boys deserve to be there.
A true academic meritocracy would of course do away both with private schooling. Is that what you mean?
Newgirls · 03/03/2022 18:31

@bleuvert

I've no problem at all with the system being levelled to make it fairer for state school students. But surely it's also true that some stereotypically arrogant public school arseholes are bloody clever and also deserve their places? Or are we going to start rejecting pupils from Oxbridge on political grounds? Or on the basis that we just don't like them very much? I'd argue that that's a very slippery slope indeed. Sure, make it a more level playing field. But if you're making it a true academic meritocracy then you can't get away from the fact that some obnoxious public school boys deserve to be there.
Good question! If admissions have choices to make then maybe they could filter on whether the student is a team player? Works well with others? Is most likely to use the education/knowledge for the good of the general population? Or by geographical area so the knowledge is spread around?
Grinling · 03/03/2022 18:34

@intwrferingma, that is exactly what I think should happen, yes.

bleuvert · 03/03/2022 18:37

As a whole system, yes, of course. And with church schools, and grammars, and the rest. But we're not talking about schools. We're talking specifically about Oxbridge. If the argument is that Oxbridge should be admitting the pupils with the grearest intrinsic academic ability and enthusiasm for their subject, then that is inevitably going to include a percentage of public school stereotypes.

And no, I agree that there is no danger of public schoolboys disappearing from Oxbridge. What I'm arguing against is the apparent perception that the presence of any public school stereotypes is an indication of unfairness.

Newgirls · 03/03/2022 18:41

If we want to improve life in the UK as a whole then yes you could argue for not including private school boys at oxbridge. Doubt it will happen. But it would be a way to change some of the status quo in this country

bleuvert · 03/03/2022 18:42

How are you defining working for the good of the general population? Most likely to find a cure for cancer? Most likely to work for a crusading charity? Most likely to be an effective diplomat? Most likely to increase GDP and therefore allow the raising of the minimum wage? Most likely to be a good PM? Pretty tough job for an admissions tutor to predict that.

bleuvert · 03/03/2022 18:49

It amazes me that people seem to think that people lack the ability to look beyond their own background. Do you really think that everyone brought up on benefits spends their working life slaving in the public sector and crusading for the poor? Or that all public schoolboys only want to earn megabucks and don't give a shit about anyone else? I have worked in the private sector and the public sector. I've been to a state school and to Oxbridge. My kids have been educated in the state sector and the private sector. And what all that has taught me is that people are people. Some are fantastic and moral and generous and kind. Some are selfish and spiteful and shallow. And that to exclude all private schoolboys from Oxbridge would be massively cutting off your nose to spite your face.

MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 18:58

Don’t think anyone is suggesting that! But yes there are super cliques of extremely arrogant entitled ex public school boys. The ones we met went to the city to make stacks of cash. I’m sure there are some nice ones but frankly if you not “in the gang” they wouldn’t socialise with you anyway…

casacat · 03/03/2022 19:04

But these cliques as you describe them MsTS are a small minority and easy enough to avoid, so irrelevant really. There will be arrogant, not to mention unpleasant, people from all walks of life and at all universities!

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