State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

Hi OP, it's certainly true for Oxbridge, they publish their admission data so you can look for yourself.
I am not getting the sense it is the same in RG.
For what it's worth, I would not choose a school based on the number of students going to Oxbridge each year but more on the dot of my child with the school.

Fit bit dot!

I give up!

No OP it’s not true at all, they’re just looking at how they can make admissions fairer and get the best possible students they can.

@MsTSwift

Christ have you actually read your own post? You are asking how to play the system - which is now trying to address years of unfairness - to try to pass your own kid off as under privileged when he is patently not to try to gain advantage for him? Sickening. You are not coming across well here op

This. Why not send your child to the geographically nearest school and let him work out whether he even wants to apply to Oxbridge, and,if so, get there under his own steam?

@MsTSwift
Are you really telling the OP to not do everything she can to help her child?

Being born middle class is ‘playing the system’ before a child even gets to this stage.

Going to a good state school by getting a house in a more expensive area is playing the system ( plus you get tax free profit from the house and save money you haven’t spent on fees).

Going to a state school and getting tutoring is playing the system.

Having the good fortune to live where there are grammar schools is playing the system.

I wonder if the universities in question are careful about putting facts together, such as post code, plus the parents’ occupations, so as to help very disadvantaged children the most?

That’s a good point as well. OP it’s way too soon to be thinking of Oxbridge or any particular uni (maybe even uni at all!) let your DS grow up pressure free. Setting expectations of Oxbridge aged 10/11 is just setting the poor boy up for stress and misery

@user1471504747

No OP it’s not true at all, they’re just looking at how they can make admissions fairer and get the best possible students they can.

Yes, you are right, Oxbridge are indeed trying to adjust their admission to address the inherent inequalities of the the private/grammar/state system. So "bias" is not quite the right term OP.

Part of being a parent is supporting and guiding your children to make good decisions that will enable them to be fulfilled individuals and productive citizens. A good parent would research whether decisions made at 10/11 year old for their child will limit their options in future, whatever those options maybe (in this case possibility of Oxbridge/RG). Obviously if those schools dont suit, it becomes a moot point but at this stage, she is right to try to understand what/if any consequences these choices may affect in future, particularly if paying fees will be a sacrifice. Just sending your kid to the nearest school geographically, never mind if it fits the child or not.....borderline benign neglect!

“Sfumato
This. Why not send your child to the geographically nearest school and let him work out whether he even wants to apply to Oxbridge, and,if so, get there under his own steam?”

If it were so easy for children to get there under their own steam no matter where they go to school, no matter what the encouragement of the parents, there would be no problem in the first place: bright children, no matter where they come from would have been applying and getting in.

What sacrifices are they?
What will going private achieve?
Is it worth it for the social connections?
Are you going private to get a specific uni place?
He may or may not
Seems you think he would get top uni place anyway, but possibly will be passed over for going to private In favour of a brighter kid from a state school because of bias towards state school?
Very odd thinking

Will it be disaster if he doesn't go to top.uni?

Go for the right school
He may or may not get into oxbridge from either

www.ft.com/content/bbb7fe58-0908-4f8e-bb1a-081a42a045b7

Sorry OP but I agree with previous posters.

It kind of sounds like you're trying to game the system. And in all honesty, Oxbridge is absolutely not right for everyone (no matter where they went to secondary school) and it absolutely should not be the determining factor for any parent in choosing a school for DC at 11.

Personally (and I am saying this as the parent of a DC at a well regarded SW London boys' indie) I feel that parents who are able to pay independent school fees should be automatically disqualified from sitting DC for the grammars. It just feels unfair. Leave the grammar places for DC whose parents could never in a million years afford independent school fees ('needing to make sacrifices' doesn't count), and just encourage your child to work hard and be kind at whatever school they go to. If they are good enough to get into Oxbridge then they will, and if they're not then they won't.

FWIW, DH is an Oxbridge graduate but I have no particular desire for the DC to go there. DH has done well and some of his cohort from his year group have done very well but a significant number have achieved very little. Oxbridge is not the be-all and end-all.

RG and Oxbridge are just not the same league. With decent academic results, decent reference and a PS that demonstrates an genuine interest for the course, it's really not that hard to get into a RG.
I would just say that choosing a school based on Oxbridge admission figures is not particularly wise.

Ok - to understand how Oxbridge works you need to understand the Collegiate system.

If you apply to (say) Caius College Cambridge to study MML , you are not one of 1000 kids applying to Cambridge trying to get 150 places. You are one of 24 kids who applied to Caius to try and get one of the 4 places.

Once the four get there the same admission tutors will have to teach them for 3 years before they sit their finals and the admission tutors / personal tutors are judged on the results.

So what they care about is getting the most able four. And they invest huge amounts of time and effort in working out who those four are.

They know that someone from Eton who performs equally to someone from a sink comprehensive in the midlands is actually far less able.

They also know that a school like Tiffin is far closer to Eton than it is to a sink comprehensive in the midlands.

Oxbridge academics are, by definition, really quite clever. They know how people try and game the system.

There is no guaranteed way to get your child into Oxbridge except by him being of the correct level of ability and having a true love for the subject.

The last time I checked - it is still believed that proportionately there are far more highly able state school kids not going to Oxbridge than highly able private school kids. However, a big part of that is that too many state school kids don’t apply. The admission tutors are pretty good at getting the best of the applicants.

What @Mumoftwoinprimary said. 👏

GF

The children who should be going to grammar schools, whose parents can’t afford tutoring, are not getting into them in the first place.

You aren't going to improve your child's chances of Oxbridge by your secondary school choice. Choose the school that will provide the best secondary education.

Historically there has been a huge bias towards private school in oxbridge. What changes there are now are simply bringing things back into balance, making admissions as fair and unbiased as possible not being biased against private school pupils, just not privileging them over state school applicants. This is as it should be.

Imagine that at an inter-school sporting event, it used to be the case that pupils from school A got a 20m head start in the sprint races, and surprise surprise most of the medals went to school A. Nowadays there are no head-starts and all pupils go from the sane starting line. Does a pupil hoping for a medal get any disadvantage from going to school A? Of course not. The trophies have fewer school A names on them these days, but the good runners still win their races.

I completely agree with @Mumoftwoinprimary

Choose a school for your child by seeing which one will suit them best (and which one they are able to get a place at!). The difference it will make to Oxbridge chances is negligible.

Subject/college choice when (if!) the time comes will be a much bigger factor in your child's chances of getting a place than where they went to school.

Just focus on what's actually good for your DC right now.
Your post is really offensive and I'm just reining it in here. Focus on your kids. It will all work itself out. They'll be fine and will end up in the best place for them.

OP your thread title have unfortunately attracted posters who seems to have no interest in answering your questions, but very ready to judge you.

Congratulations and good luck in choosing! I don't have direct experience in those schools so can't advise.

Getting into Oxbridge, in my opinion, is very luck dependent no matter how great the candidate is, so better not pin too much hope on it. Choose the school where your DS would be happiest I guess?

Puts me in mind of that heartbreaking video of teens doing a running race. Before they start the organiser does announcements do “take a step forward each time if you went to private school/your parents still together/ you never got free school meals / you never had to worry about rent etc. then they blow the whistle and the privileged kids all win because they are ahead already despite the ones at the back trying so hard. They all ended up in tears.

I don't find your post offensive at all and I think you ask very good questions. I'm a teacher and have taught at a uni (not Oxbridge), plus have a friend who is in admissions at a RG university. Just choose the school that will suit your child best. Even though universities are trying to have more of a balance of students from state vs private schools, there are still a disproportionate number entering Oxbridge from private schools in comparison to state, and I can't see this changing for a very long time. Postcodes also come into it, not just school type, although that's quite a crude measure.

Also, in reference to some other (quote rude!) posters, of course you are not trying to 'game' the system - well, no more than a parent who moves house based on school catchments, for instance! You are simply trying to make the best decisions for your child to give him the widest opportunities - I'm sure the majority of people on mumsnet do that.

@Mumoftwoinprimary
I think what you wrote is right and you put everything so clearly.

I was wondering though, in practice, what happens with a child who is extremely bright by any standards but not evidently under privileged.

Would the same child at a comprehensive in a reasonable area, now have a better chance of getting into Oxbridge than if they were at a private day school?

I do think that previously they would not have, because their school would not always have given them the necessary breadth and depth of thinking around their subject ( more homework, going beyond the syllabus, trips etc), or helped them build up experience in talking about it.