State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

@confusedmommy
I hate to say this but you must make a selection on best fit for your child. Not what university might interest them age 17/18.

We had a similar dilemma (not so swanky schools) but nonetheless, grammar vs private boarding. We felt private boarding worked best for DD and she absolutely wanted it. I had no idea who went to Oxbridge from there. We chose it for size, opportunities, extra curricular, boarding ethos and academics. We involved DD in the decision-making.

Be honest, leaving Oxbridge aside, which school suits your DS best? Where would he thrive and flourish? Where are there most people like you? Do you want to scrape by financially? We knew the boarding school we chose offered activities and an ethos that we all wanted. I wanted DD to be happy and thrive. I’m sure you would say that about your DS. Where does he want to go? Ask him. We got a clear answer from DD.,

So move away from the Oxbridge worries and think about the next 7 years. It’s far more important than Oxbridge stats. Plus plenty of DC from Imperial, LSE, Durham and others are no back numbers and not barred from anything. Hope you make the best decision for DS and it’s not based on university admissions. Bright DC always do well if they are happy and engaged!!

I don't think it's an unreasonable question you are asking however the answer is No with regards to the aforementioned schools. Grammar schools are judged at the same school as independent schools so it won't make a difference.

"Just sending your kid to the nearest school geographically, never mind if it fits the child or not.....borderline benign neglect!"

This is a ridiculous statement. And highly, highly offensive.

The vast majority of parents in this country will do exactly that. The idea that people have a choice about what school their child goes to is fiction in many areas of the UK. Either rurally, because there is only one choice and families need to avail themselves of the free council transport to get to it, or in cities where schools are insanely oversubscribed.

To describe parents as neglectful because they don't have the money and means to buy choice is breathtakingly lacking in imagination and understanding of the factors involved.

@newmummycwharf1

Part of being a parent is supporting and guiding your children to make good decisions that will enable them to be fulfilled individuals and productive citizens. A good parent would research whether decisions made at 10/11 year old for their child will limit their options in future, whatever those options maybe (in this case possibility of Oxbridge/RG). Obviously if those schools dont suit, it becomes a moot point but at this stage, she is right to try to understand what/if any consequences these choices may affect in future, particularly if paying fees will be a sacrifice. Just sending your kid to the nearest school geographically, never mind if it fits the child or not.....borderline benign neglect!

I don’t think either “a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson )” is going to limit any options. There is probably scope for OP to relax a bit.

I always prioritised stability for ds, which had a specific meaning for me. In particular, I didn't look at trying to get huge bursaries to a private school- there are a few available near us, could never have happened otherwise- because I wanted to be absolutely certain that ds wouldn't have to change school because of financial pressures. My experience of people who have to crash out of private school when they didn't want to is that its a really, really bad idea. Only you know what 'sacrifices' mean and how reliable your ability to pay for 7 years is.

Re Oxbridge - pfft. It's a gamble. If you're applying for computer science at Cambridge you have a 3% chance of an offer. Dont build your child's life on those odds. If your kid likes it, sure have a go when the time comes, it's a great university.

@confusedmommy , you may have done better to wait until next week to post this thread as there will be many parents in the same position as you. As a general rule of thumb if you don't have a scholarship offer from KCS/St Pauls then take the grammar place. Your dc will have a great education and you can move him to a private school for 6th form if you wanted to.
Don't think about uni as it's 7 years away, think about the pot of cash you will have saved instead.
Next week on elevenplusexams.co.uk Surrey forum section there will be similar discussions too.

I agree with the others saying it isn't a bias towards state school but removing the bias towards independent schools.

Getting in is partly luck anyway due to there being more suitable applicants than there are places.

By definition a student applying from eg Eton will have been better educated and better prepped for interview than a student from 'random average comprehensive'. Therefore they will rightly take that into account. However they will still expect 'more' from elite state school pupils too.

By going private you aren't buying a place at Oxford/Cambridge. Though there are presumably benefits to private over grammar. Are they worth the money for you?

“State school bias” is pretty offensive to me actually. My dad is a retired teacher and him and his fellow teacher retirees volunteer at the local rural comp supporting the brightest kids with their Oxbridge applications. Dh got to Cambridge was first in his family to even go to university his parents manual workers -his head teacher at his comp was so excited dh got in he went on local radio that’s how rare it was.

“CarbonelCat

"Just sending your kid to the nearest school geographically, never mind if it fits the child or not.....borderline benign neglect!"

“This is a ridiculous statement. And highly, highly offensive. “

You have read that statement out of the original context which was related to when a person does have a choice.

It's undoubtedly true that a lot of the big name private schools have seen a substantial drop in their Oxbridge numbers. It's also undoubtedly true that Oxbridge is still going to want to keep taking the exceptionally talented students from these schools - as @Mumoftwoinprimary described so well above, the admissions tutors want to take the best students for their course. If your DC are exceptionally academically talented, then they will still have a good chance of an Oxbridge place from a private school (actual stats will vary wildly between courses and colleges). If they're a bright but not quite so exceptional student, they're probably now a bit less likely to get an Oxbridge place from a private school than they would have been a few years ago - because Oxbridge is trying to look beyond public school polish and actively seek out state school talent.

This is surely as it should be. Only you can decide whether that influences your choice of school.

I remember Dh and I being gob smacked at a dinner party where people were actually bemoaning that going to private school no longer gave them the advantage and how unfair that was because they had paid 🙄. Awkward as we both state educated but moved in circles where everyone else had been to public schools and they assumed we had too. Some of the things they came out with about state schools were pretty / shocking / amusing!

It will make very little if no difference OP. Your DC’s application will be contextualised against the average grades of the cohort in the school where they took the exams. So, for instance, if the average grade profile in one of those schools is 9999988888, 2xA and 1xA and your DS gets 9999999999 and 3xA*, then that will be regarded as very good. But if your DS achieved the same grades in a school where the average grade profile was 5555556666, CCC, for instance, he would obviously be regarded as exceptional.

Oxbridge realise that a grammar school, particularly a super selective one, is hardly the same as a comprehensive. They don’t just lump all state schools together! It’s far more nuanced than that. It’s about whether a student can demonstrate ability and commitment beyond the expectations / opportunities given to them at their school. They’re hardly going to see someone from Tiffin or Wilson’s as ‘educationally disadvantaged.’

Oxbridge entry is basically a gamble. I think
Putting your eggs in a basket now is wrong. Go for the right school for your child and see what he wants to do later on. The oxbridge courses are very specific and are not for everyone. People leave because it's not what they wanted to do and were blinkered by the Oxbridge brand.
Your child will feel pressure if you are talking about Oxbridge now. How will he feel when he maybe doesn't want to go/doesn't get in/doesn't actually want to go to uni!

Precisely - the OP has a choice and is looking for information to help her make the best choice for her child. That is what any parent SHOULD do. For some parents in the UK, choice involves moving home, finding religion, tutoring their child, language or music ability tests, paying. Her child sat for assessments to these schools. It is wise to question the value-add of making sacrifices to pay fees and understand the impact of these choices on the child's potential university choices - if any. Some may think premature and maybe it is but investing upwards of £200k in fees would not be taken lightly by most people. You are suggesting she should pretend she does not have options, that there are no opportunity costs and simply go to the nearest one..... Strange!

Some great advice on here for OP btw. And I agree it is early days to know what uni will suit your child. You have great options - so best fit fot the child and your financial circumstances would be my suggestion. You dont want to struggle and sacrifice to pay and end up disappointed if your main reason for doing so is to get into Oxbridge of RG of choice and that doesnt pan out. The school experience for the child is very important and an environment where they will grow in confidence, flourish into themselves, find their voice would be worth its weight in gold - and may not necessarily be the independent option. Only you know what would likely suit your child best and also how affordable the independent options are for you

I thought universities only looked at the school where the DC took A Levels? So this isn't even a consideration until sixth form level and OP should pick which school suits her child now, and forget about potential Oxbridge/RG plans for at least another 4 years ...

@newmummycwharf1

Precisely - the OP has a choice and is looking for information to help her make the best choice for her child. That is what any parent SHOULD do. For some parents in the UK, choice involves moving home, finding religion, tutoring their child, language or music ability tests, paying. Her child sat for assessments to these schools. It is wise to question the value-add of making sacrifices to pay fees and understand the impact of these choices on the child's potential university choices - if any. Some may think premature and maybe it is but investing upwards of £200k in fees would not be taken lightly by most people. You are suggesting she should pretend she does not have options, that there are no opportunity costs and simply go to the nearest one..... Strange!

That’s exactly what I would suggest. See if little Miles is clever enough to get into Oxbridge — if appropriate for what he wants to do — from a bog-standard comp.

Contextual offers look at grammar schools as akin to private schools so it is unlikely to offer much of a benefit so choose the school which you can afford and which best suits your dc.

@RedskyThisNight

I thought universities only looked at the school where the DC took A Levels? So this isn't even a consideration until sixth form level and OP should pick which school suits her child now, and forget about potential Oxbridge/RG plans for at least another 4 years ...

Which is why some parents move their children from independent to state for sixth form.

Thank you all ! First of all, sincere apologies to anyone who was offended by the use of the word “bias” in my title . It was a poor choice of words at 11pm on a Saturday night after 2 glasses of wine ! Also should’ve said “university choices” as opposed to oxbridge as my question was broader about Russell group as well.

But for anyone else who was offended because they are under the impression that I’m somehow trying to game the system, all I can say is you are easily outraged 😁!

I know university is a while away and my child may not even consider oxbridge and we may or may not even be in this country by then ( we are not British ) , all I’m trying to do is to ensure is I’m not somehow inadvertently reducing his options later on , at least on a marginal basis. Very reassured to know that isn’t the case, and that the university admission process is far more discerning than that . And good to know and understand why a great grammar school wouldn’t quite be in the same bucket as another comprehensive school , so frankly - for the options we are considering , what I’m taking away is it makes no practical difference one way or another and this shouldn’t be a factor that influences my decision.

Will wait to see grammar school outcomes next week and then pick . One indie option (kings) is more convenient for us location wise and will allow my DS who is sporty to have more opportunities easily and enable him to stay back later in the afternoons / weekends to participate more fully in school life. Grammars are a 45 min commute ( and in the case of wilsons a change between tram and bus) while kings would be at max a 20 min direct public bus route . While right now DC doesn’t seem to have a strong POV on the longer grammar commute, I think he will on a cold rainy October afternoon carrying a heavy school bag😂. We are both full time working parents and also will find it easier to get to kings for attending parents evenings etc. So if we pick the
Indie , it would largely be for convenience but alas it comes with an eye watering price tag . As I said , I can afford the fees , but we’ve so far been in a state primary and have other younger DC in state primary who may or may not be in the same position as my eldest who has a grammar school option ( tbc based on the results on March 1) . Taking up kings or St. Paul’s would mean an extra £175k in the next 7 years with knock on implications on family holidays /potential home refurb plans etc which might need to be on hold.

To reiterate , I didn’t mean to offend anyone or sound privileged either because I can afford an indie , or because I have a child has the option of some super selective schools - just trying to make an informed choice for my first born as a mildly bewildered parent who is not British and navigating what’s possibly more clear- cut for many others . In any case, my question is answered , so thank you very much for taking the time to consider my dilemma and respond with so much clarity . Appreciate it !

I don't know about oxbridge, but I know bristol makes a lower offer to kids from schools in the bottom 40% for A level results. So most grammars wouldn't be in it

RedskyThisNight
“I thought universities only looked at the school where the DC took A Levels? So this isn't even a consideration until sixth form level and OP should pick which school suits her child now, and forget about potential Oxbridge/RG plans for at least another 4 years ...”

No, they contextualise your GCSEs according to where you took them, as well as you A-levels. So little point trying to tactically move to a state sixth form for A-levels. They will spot this a mile off.

Oxford put more emphasis on the GCSEs than Cambridge, apparently.

No, they contextualise your GCSEs according to where you took them, as well as you A-levels. So little point trying to tactically move to a state sixth form for A-levels. They will spot this a mile off.

Contextualisation is not as simple as state vs private though. (which seems to be what OP is asking). Going to a top grammar vs an independent is unlikely to make a whole lot of difference.

Having just gone through the whole thing with my son (rejected from Cambridge, engineering from a super-selective grammar), I think there is a certain amount of luck to the whole thing.

He did really well in the exam (quite a bit better than 2 schoolmate who got in, same subject) & every other aspect (refs, interview, GCSE's were all fantastic). But still no place.

He chose a popular college. And they probably found small reasons to reject him (Further Maths AS, too much aero in PS etc). But that's all they had and the margins are very thin.There are simply many, many extremely able children out there and there's not much to differentiate between them.

I don' t think they see much of a difference between grammar or Indie. The advantage is the same. It's just that the pool of candidates has widened and they are now also considering those without the advantage of indie or grammar.

The Oxbridge attendees I know are not more successful or happy than people who went elsewhere. It's a great option. But there are lots of other great universities out there too.

Just pick a school that suits your son and who he is. The future will take care of itself.