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Secondary education

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State school oxbridge bias

572 replies

confusedmommy · 26/02/2022 23:03

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

OP posts:
pkim123 · 03/03/2022 10:15

@MsTSwift

I somehow think we will manage just fine with our home grown talent!
Okay, you're right. I'm wrong. Sorry.
MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 11:01

Just find the argument that we have to continue to prioritise the offspring of the wealthy over everyone else because otherwise we may lose these superior beings just sticks in my craw!

Grinling · 03/03/2022 11:26

@ScrollingLeaves

Grinding “Indeed. Also, what is the alternative — give them Oxbridge laces so they don’t flounce off overseas? “

Re: “flouncing off”
I don’t think it is so much flouncing as that now we have to pay such higher fees here, for some America is worth considering. Their universities are excellent especially if a student wants a wider base of knowledge before specialising. Then some others are able to get scholarships in America.

Yes, I had a scholarship to Brown myself back in the day (that I didn’t end up accepting in part because I found the various distribution requirement were a bit infantilising). Absolutely, US universities are worth considering, as are various European institutions — though, post-Brexit, I don’t know whether that’s now possible for British students.

But otherwise, yes, @MrsTSwift, that’s also my thought.

I remember too all that kerfuffle about Laura Spence back in 2000, as though Harvard had somehow got it right and Oxford got it wrong, which I think is short-sighted. She was a brilliant candidate, but so presumably were the others competing for a tiny number of places.

MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 11:45

Rather than fretting that the rich might flounce off the counter concern is that raw talent in less privileged sections of society won’t be allowed to flourish and be fully realised. That’s more of a concern than “brain drain” surely?

Think things are improving a girl in the year above Dd at her state school already being mentored by Oxford - straight 9s in everything mums a single parent in a deprived area of our city. That will make up for “losing” Hugo to Harvard 😁

Newgirls · 03/03/2022 12:00

I think the UK could do with losing a few Hugos to be honest

We need far more diversity in our top jobs and plenty of people are more than capable

(I’m sure there are some v nice Hugos too)

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2022 12:09

Someone posted statistics earlier in the thread and I saw that there are about 9000 applicants from state schools and about 4000 from private.

About 6% of students are at private schools. So this means that a vastly higher proportion of private schools have applicants apply in the first place.

jytdtysrht · 03/03/2022 12:40

How awful to talk about children as “Hugos” with all the associated connotations.

How did we get into a position where a child of a successful person cannot be recognised for their own efforts and achievements and is disposable to our nation?

Discrimination and sweeping judgement seem to be OK as long as it’s against the rich and successful.

ThymePoultice · 03/03/2022 12:42

@jytdtysrht

How awful to talk about children as “Hugos” with all the associated connotations.

How did we get into a position where a child of a successful person cannot be recognised for their own efforts and achievements and is disposable to our nation?

Discrimination and sweeping judgement seem to be OK as long as it’s against the rich and successful.

Yes that’s top issue on my list of campaigns that need starting.
jytdtysrht · 03/03/2022 12:43

No campaign needed - it’s just basic manners and decency towards others.

Oblomov22 · 03/03/2022 12:56

I do find Oxbridge acceptance puzzling. 3 of the brightest people I know are Oxford 'rejects' (what a horrible word that is). Ds's local school is excellent and has very good Oxbridge success and RG.

MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 13:01

The point well made earlier is they have been massively advantaged for years and frankly still are - odd that any attempt to redress this causes upset. Really?!

Newgirls · 03/03/2022 13:03

How certain privileged people have acted over the years has not been ‘polite’. For far too long it has been about recruiting in own image, to contacts, to friends. That’s not polite or fair minded. Levelling up is long overdue

jytdtysrht · 03/03/2022 13:21

That’s the irony, though newgirls about levelling up. My dh is someone who was “levelled up”. Son of a cleaner. Worked very hard, very intelligent.
Went to Cambridge with financial assistance. Got a good job. And now has a child. Child is a “Hugo” apparently.

TeenPlusCat · 03/03/2022 13:25

@jytdtysrht

That’s the irony, though newgirls about levelling up. My dh is someone who was “levelled up”. Son of a cleaner. Worked very hard, very intelligent. Went to Cambridge with financial assistance. Got a good job. And now has a child. Child is a “Hugo” apparently.
Oh rubbish.

'Hugo' means a certain type of public school boy who lives a rich and privileged lifestyle and thinks he is better than everyone else because of it and makes sure you know it.

It does not mean everyone who goes to an independent school, nor even everyone at say Eton.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2022 13:26

Some private school pupils had scholarships or bursaries to get there. Some had parents who were considerably poorer than some others at state schools.

MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 13:45

Exactly. Which is why the system needs to be nuanced to recognise this and to bring through talent. Not a shoo in for the Boris Johnson /Rees Mogg types.

intwrferingma · 03/03/2022 13:52

@ScrollingLeaves

Some private school pupils had scholarships or bursaries to get there. Some had parents who were considerably poorer than some others at state schools.
And? You do realise the school is getting something valuable in return? It's not a completely altruistic gift. The school gets a great brain or musician or sports person who would otherwise have gone elsewhere
jytdtysrht · 03/03/2022 14:15

Research Boris Johnson’s full life from childhood. You will find that he was very far from “privileged” once you collect all that info.

I didn’t vote for him. I don’t like him. But to dismiss him as a toff who never suffered hardship is wishful thinking based on surface evidence.

MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 14:27

There are too many of one particular type of person at the top. Needs to broaden out - for the benefit of all of us. Not changing my mind on that.

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 03/03/2022 14:42

@jytdtysrht

Research Boris Johnson’s full life from childhood. You will find that he was very far from “privileged” once you collect all that info.

I didn’t vote for him. I don’t like him. But to dismiss him as a toff who never suffered hardship is wishful thinking based on surface evidence.

Then what was he doing in the Bullingdon Club?

Why did he consider £250k a year for writing a newspaper column as a second job “chicken feed”?

Whilst Johnson may have had a difficult childhood he has developed into quite the epitome of privilege.

casacat · 03/03/2022 14:49

People in these threads always go in about BJ and JRM as if they somehow represent children in today’s independent schools. It does my head in.

In my entire life, I be never met anybody who vaguely resembles BJ or JRM. I doubt anyone has - these men are caricatures of themselves. And my DD goes to a London day school JRM’s sister once attended (apparently)? These particular two men got into Oxbridge in the days when you could bluster through and get EE offers. It’s pointless and tiresome bringing these two up as representative of anything because those days are long gone.

Grinling · 03/03/2022 15:03

@jytdtysrht

Research Boris Johnson’s full life from childhood. You will find that he was very far from “privileged” once you collect all that info.

I didn’t vote for him. I don’t like him. But to dismiss him as a toff who never suffered hardship is wishful thinking based on surface evidence.

I'm fascinated by which part of his early life you consider 'non-privileged'.
MsTSwift · 03/03/2022 15:17

Who is saying all private school children are like JRM?! Nobody!

ThymePoultice · 03/03/2022 15:34

@jytdtysrht

That’s the irony, though newgirls about levelling up. My dh is someone who was “levelled up”. Son of a cleaner. Worked very hard, very intelligent. Went to Cambridge with financial assistance. Got a good job. And now has a child. Child is a “Hugo” apparently.
That is unutterable bilge TBH.

Nobody gets stereotyped as any stripe of ninny just for who the parents are. It’s normally a good idea not to be a whinging twit when you’ve had any form of luck, though, I find. People will generously overlook you’re good fortune if you’re polite and humble. Big heads and nuisances get a harder ride:

casacat · 03/03/2022 15:35

My son has been accepted to Cambridge this year. He is at a selective independent school. Yes he has had the benefit of teaching that’s been excellent on the whole, as well as the benefit of being surrounded by peers who pretty much all attained 9s and A*s. I don’t underestimate this! However, there is no special Oxbridge guidance in the school whatsoever. The things he talked about in one of his interviews were things he did off his own bat and nothing to do with the school.

As I understand it, at 6th form age, just over 20% of students nationally attend independent schools. So Oxbridge are looking to reflect this 80 / 20 national picture in terms of admissions. The situation is complicated by the fact that many independent schools are academically selective (some highly so) so you would naturally expect a higher proportion of those in super-selective schools to be in a position to apply anyway. In the same way, you can’t compare a selective grammar to an comprehensive and complain that more are applying to Oxbridge from grammars.

Based on the Cambridge stats from the last few years, most colleges seem to be achieving between 70-80% state intake. Obviously this hasn’t always been the case, but most colleges are already hitting their widening participation targets by the look of it.

As for the so-called ‘squeeze’ on applicants from the independent sector - well, those students such as my DS will just have to recognise that three A* from a ‘top’ school are going to look less impressive than the same grades from a low performing school and adapt accordingly. By ‘adapt’ I mean, use extra initiative - in the same way that those in low-performing schools have has to compensate for gaps in teaching or generally low standards in their schools. Students in top schools will have to ‘do more’ basically. This is the reality if it. They can go beyond the curriculum by entering essay competitions and this kind of thing. Show they have drive and determination that way. I think this is fair enough.

Also - I can only speak for Cambridge - but teachers in independent schools are still claiming that it doesn’t matter which college you apply to because the ‘Winter Pool’ will ensure that the best applicants are offered places across the university. I think this is poor advice.

In the case of applicants to Cambridge from the independent sector, college choice absolutely matters nowadays. There was a thread some time ago on MN, on which two admissions tutors admitted that independent applicants will very rarely, if ever, be taken out if the Winter Pool these days. This is because colleges now go to this pool to look for certain candidates to top up their widening participation targets. (abeit very able candidates). They are all aiming to hit the 80/20 contextualisation target and no college wants to be out of the loop here since they now mainly use the Winter Pool for this purpose. I think this has been the main shift and this is why many independent schools are noticing a downturn in their Cambridge success rates - ie a student will either be accepted into their first choice college or not at all.

As an applicant for from the independent sector, you are better off applying to a college that, in recent years, has already been receiving about 80% of its applicants from the state sector (many colleges now do, but not all). Then you can be more sure that you are not being potentially ‘squeezed out’ because of contextualisation. You can look at the admissions stats - some colleges have 80% ish state applications and 80% ish state intake - so that’s fine. Other colleges only have say, 68% state applications but are still aiming for 80% state intake. You don’t need a degree to work out which colleges independent candidates have a better chance of being accepted to.