State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

@MsTSwift

Don’t think anyone is suggesting that! But yes there are super cliques of extremely arrogant entitled ex public school boys. The ones we met went to the city to make stacks of cash. I’m sure there are some nice ones but frankly if you not “in the gang” they wouldn’t socialise with you anyway…

IME those types are also deeply unpleasant homophobic and misogynistic twats. I’m not sure they would be missed.

@Newgirls

If we want to improve life in the UK as a whole then yes you could argue for not including private school boys at oxbridge. Doubt it will happen. But it would be a way to change some of the status quo in this country

That is exactly what some people are suggesting.

Of course! Most are lovely. Have experienced being threatened with being beaten up for being “posh” at my rough comp and then been politely ignored and certainly deemed not posh enough by some of the public school clique 😁. Tough being in the middle!

the UK has much higher inequality and much lower social mobility than comparable countries. there may well come a day when "won't someone think of the public schoolboys?" becomes a valid question, but that day is baby years off yet.

• many years

To go back to the original OP, I think the best thing would be to simply think about which of the schools you are thinking of best suits your DC in terms of all their interests and abilities outside their academic ones, as well as their temperament, then go with that regardless of the university at the end. They will be at school far longer than at university, and being involved, happy and in a ‘flow’ there will serve them all their lives.

Genuine question for the thread (NC as a little outing). I'm a state school girl. DH is a public school boy. Both got 2E offers to Oxford. I got marginally better A level results than he did. Once at Oxford, I struggled at first (due to a general lack of confidence) but rallied thanks to excellent pastoral support. DH thrived from Day 1. We both ended up having a great time and contributing fully to college life. We both got the same degree result. After leaving, I spent my career in a private sector job unrelated to my subject. Although in no way morally questionable, my work doesn't have any particular benefit to the world, except in so far as I pay my taxes and contribute to the economy. DH is a (brilliant) teacher who has spent every day of his working life sharing his subject knowledge and directly improving the life of his pupils (in both the state and private sectors, if that's relevant).

Which of us deserved the place more, and why?

What are you on about?!

Eh? It's surely directly relevant to the question about state school 'bias' and contextualisation. If you were an Oxbridge admissions tutor with a crystal ball (ie you knew not only our academic ability but also what we would go on to do with our degrees), would you give your last place to state school me or public school DH? I can see arguments both ways. I'm genuinely interested in what people think.

@MsTSwift

Rather than fretting that the rich might flounce off the counter concern is that raw talent in less privileged sections of society won’t be allowed to flourish and be fully realised. That’s more of a concern than “brain drain” surely?

Think things are improving a girl in the year above Dd at her state school already being mentored by Oxford - straight 9s in everything mums a single parent in a deprived area of our city. That will make up for “losing” Hugo to Harvard 😁

I don't necessarily think we need to rank concerns. I'd like to think we can solve all concerns and ensure the best outcome for all & country. That said, I appreciate it's very fashionable to bash people that can afford to go to the U.S. as bad people who we don't care if they leave.

I know four students who went to the US. One was from our comp, and no one understands how he pulled it off. But amazing.
The other three were rowers from indies. Those sorts of sports scholarships aren't really available to most schools.

People just seem to rush in assuming privately educated people being criticised trying to prove some are good guys of course they are it’s obvious your class and education are no reflection on your character no one is saying that.

@MsTSwift

People just seem to rush in assuming privately educated people being criticised trying to prove some are good guys of course they are it’s obvious your class and education are no reflection on your character no one is saying that.

Okay, that's fair. But did we really need the "That will make up for “losing” Hugo to Harvard 😁" comment then?

Well some of the are twats - I stand by that. But not ALL obviously

@MsTSwift

Well some of the are twats - I stand by that. But not ALL obviously

And none of the state school kids are? They are all universally great people? But just some of the private school "Hugos" are bad people? That is what you're suggesting, right?

But also people aren't standing back and looking dispassionately at the bigger picture. What is Oxbridge for? What do we want it to be? Do we want it to look exclusively at academic ability at the point of entry? Do we want it to look at academic potential not just academic achievement so far? Do we want it to serve as an engine for social change, or to be single minded in its quest for academic excellence at the expense of all else? Do we want it to produce academic researchers, or Shakespeare, or towering political figures, or captains of industry, or all of the above? If we don't have a clear idea of the answers to these sorts of questions, then it's very difficult to think clearly about how we want its admissions policies to work. I didn't ask my 'me or DH' question in a 'poor DH, he's a very nice man really in spite of going to public school, please don't theoretically kick him out of Oxford' way. I asked it the sense of - in this scenario, which student do we want Oxbridge to admit? Which student better serves the aim of what we want Oxbridge to be? Is the answer me, or DH, or both, or neither? Whatever the answer is, it gives some steer as to how we therefore want admissions to work.

There's plenty of inference on MN that state schools are full of bad 'uns.
It's oft cited as a reason why posters pay for education - low academic standards, bad behavior etc. Tho obviously not all state schools kids exhibit those dubious qualities. Just because they're not labelled 'Bradley's' or 'Shannon's' doesn't mean the inference isn't there.
Likewise the general inference by that state school kids don't deserve Oxbridge places - that somehow they're contextualised rather than deserved.
Sweeping statements abound on both sides.

Yes every single state school person is amazing and faultless that’s exactly what I said 🙄 especially describing the ones who wanted to beat me up for being posh!. Dear me the level of debate here is absolutely dire !

Wasn't replying to you @MsTSwift
Was trying to back up your arguement!
As the mother of a Cambridge grader who went to a dire state school I get sick of people banging on about contextuals as if he wouldn't or shouldn't have had the place. Likewise so many people wanting to avoid state
Schools bc of behavior. They're not all wrong 'uns

@ScrollingLeaves, that is

…that is excellent advice!

The system will always favour those with money as long as the Russell group uni's offer no real help for students from poor backgrounds.

Harvard and Columbia and a string of other Ivy League now offer 100% fees reduction and living costs grants to those from poor families - this is not the gov aid US students can get, this is a financial package offered by the university themselves. Harvard even offer it to international students.

In stark contrast Oxford only offers up to 5K a year to poor students , which is peanuts.

That is the real barrier to university for talented poor A Level students, the debt and fear of debt, especially for those who are interested in subjects which doesn't lead to a lucrative career.

@spondee

But also people aren't standing back and looking dispassionately at the bigger picture. What is Oxbridge for? What do we want it to be? Do we want it to look exclusively at academic ability at the point of entry? Do we want it to look at academic potential not just academic achievement so far? Do we want it to serve as an engine for social change, or to be single minded in its quest for academic excellence at the expense of all else? Do we want it to produce academic researchers, or Shakespeare, or towering political figures, or captains of industry, or all of the above? If we don't have a clear idea of the answers to these sorts of questions, then it's very difficult to think clearly about how we want its admissions policies to work. I didn't ask my 'me or DH' question in a 'poor DH, he's a very nice man really in spite of going to public school, please don't theoretically kick him out of Oxford' way. I asked it the sense of - in this scenario, which student do we want Oxbridge to admit? Which student better serves the aim of what we want Oxbridge to be? Is the answer me, or DH, or both, or neither? Whatever the answer is, it gives some steer as to how we therefore want admissions to work.

But it’s also just another pair of universities, albeit ones which have attracted a mythos because of age, beautiful architecture, and connections to the corridors of power/Establishment — should it be asking itself different questions to any other universities in terms of widening participation? It seems to me a problem deep-rooted in British class structures and establishments rather than something specific to these institutions. And I don’t think it can be sorted while an inegalitarian education system exists, judging by the responses on this and similar threads by parents outraged by their special efforts on behalf of their children (tutoring, expensive selective school fees etc) turning out, in their view to now disadvantage them in terms of the ultimate plum of Oxbridge entry. While parents think of education primarily as a chance to get their child ahead, that won’t change.

The special status of Oxbridge is a symptom of social anxiety, and inequality, and a perpetrator of the latter.

@spondee

Eh? It's surely directly relevant to the question about state school 'bias' and contextualisation. If you were an Oxbridge admissions tutor with a crystal ball (ie you knew not only our academic ability but also what we would go on to do with our degrees), would you give your last place to state school me or public school DH? I can see arguments both ways. I'm genuinely interested in what people think.

that's not their job is it?

There job is to uncover talent and those who will flourish at College, not what job they'd go onto and contribute to the world.

Its a bit moot as the unconditional days are over ( for now) but based on you and your DH, in today's world your DH may have missed out, between the two of you, as confirmed by the fact you got better A level results. If you both had same predicted grades (assuming you had) I would have thought they'd lean to you - if entry requirement was say AAA for History of Art, and your both predicted AAA, then AAA from comp is more meaty than AAA from private.

Remember this is the context Oxbridge over-recruits from a select few private schools ( Eton, St Pauls boys, St Pauls Girls, Westminster, Kings College, Magdalen College School) , in your day it did, and it does now

@MsTSwift

Yes every single state school person is amazing and faultless that’s exactly what I said 🙄 especially describing the ones who wanted to beat me up for being posh!. Dear me the level of debate here is absolutely dire !

You heavily insinuated it my dear.