State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

Oxbridge might not even be right for your very bright child. My sister had amazing academics and would have interviewed well so had a good a chance as anyone but chose not to even interview for Oxbridge as didn’t feel it was right for her and went to a top college that excelled in her particular specialism which was perfect for het and has gone on to have an incredible career. This Oxbridge or bust attitude when your child is 11 is frankly bonkers.

@3peassuit

Bristol, Exeter, Durham and the like are full of bright students who just missed out on an Oxbridge offer. All have A*/As and put in a great personal statement. Somehow, most get over their disappointment and flourish.

They’re also full of people who didn’t apply to Oxbridge. Those three universities aren’t some kind of Oxbridge Rejects Consolation Prize!

I know that Grinling. I was just trying to let jytdtysrht that her particular lad wasn’t the only one.

Thanks intwrferingma and Mumoftwoinprimary. That’s reassuring. I haven’t marked her down for any particular uni nor am I trying to game the system. Just don’t want to disadvantage her later down the line by sending her to a grammar in a non grammar school area. Hoping that it is the right school for her, but only time will tell.

OP, don’t ask mumsnet. Check the stats.

www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/AnnualAdmissionsStatisticalReport2021.pdf

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics

Total places aren’t increasing while the proportion of DC coming from state schools is increasing, this can only logically happen if the proportion of DC from private schools falls.

The Cambridge data is particularly good. You can see that private school acceptances are steeply down since 2011, while grammar school acceptances have risen.

Oxbridge admissions are a crapshoot. Roughly speaking the top 3% of students apply, but Oxbridge can only accept a third of them. Do you think Oxbridge admissions tutors can effectively separate children in the top 1% from those merely in the top 2 or 3%. Of course they can’t. DC from both private and state schools will be disappointed and there is nothing “fair” about it for any of them.

@MsTSwift

Oxbridge might not even be right for your very bright child. My sister had amazing academics and would have interviewed well so had a good a chance as anyone but chose not to even interview for Oxbridge as didn’t feel it was right for her and went to a top college that excelled in her particular specialism which was perfect for het and has gone on to have an incredible career. This Oxbridge or bust attitude when your child is 11 is frankly bonkers.

Just to point out, they don’t necessarily choose the candidates who ‘interview well’ either. It’s more nuanced than that. There were people at my interview who were much more polished than me, and in fact I think I interviewed badly. I’d had no prep, not even a mock, and I even got a question wrong. But I corrected it, thinking out loud, and he liked the way my mind worked.

There are so many assumptions about what gets you into Oxbridge. It’s about more than grades and ‘polish’.

Agreed, @Brightandyoung. I’d attended a school where barely anyone went to university, far less Oxbridge, and I had done no preparation at all. I don’t think I’d ever discussed a book with anyone in my life — there were none at home, and my parents had left school very young, and weren’t keen on me going to university. I’m sure my interview was awful, but I think the interviewers could see I had an appetite and ability, however unpolished and unprepared.

A friend of mine used to be on the panel for applicants to Oxford for a humanities subject. I asked her if it was as I'd heard; that just having 'it' and standing out was the way to get a place. She said it's actually incredibly boring and much like a job interview with tick boxes and competency based questioning. This was circa 2010.

@Mumoftwoinprimary

Ok - to understand how Oxbridge works you need to understand the Collegiate system.

If you apply to (say) Caius College Cambridge to study MML , you are not one of 1000 kids applying to Cambridge trying to get 150 places. You are one of 24 kids who applied to Caius to try and get one of the 4 places.

Once the four get there the same admission tutors will have to teach them for 3 years before they sit their finals and the admission tutors / personal tutors are judged on the results.

So what they care about is getting the most able four. And they invest huge amounts of time and effort in working out who those four are.

They know that someone from Eton who performs equally to someone from a sink comprehensive in the midlands is actually far less able.

They also know that a school like Tiffin is far closer to Eton than it is to a sink comprehensive in the midlands.

Oxbridge academics are, by definition, really quite clever. They know how people try and game the system.

There is no guaranteed way to get your child into Oxbridge except by him being of the correct level of ability and having a true love for the subject.

The last time I checked - it is still believed that proportionately there are far more highly able state school kids not going to Oxbridge than highly able private school kids. However, a big part of that is that too many state school kids don’t apply. The admission tutors are pretty good at getting the best of the applicants.

I agree with this.

@SoberSerena

A friend of mine used to be on the panel for applicants to Oxford for a humanities subject. I asked her if it was as I'd heard; that just having 'it' and standing out was the way to get a place. She said it's actually incredibly boring and much like a job interview with tick boxes and competency based questioning. This was circa 2010.

I think that's a hoary old myth from aeons back, like the jaded don who says 'Surprise me' and the cocky young applicant sets his newspaper on fire.

Hahaha that was exactly the urban myth I was thinking of! "Surprise me" .

Tell you what happened to my son at a New College Oxford interview 8 years ago. The guy asked him what school he went to. DS answered, and the interview rapidly went downhill when the interviewer replied 'well how on earth do you expect to cope here then?'
If it was a test it was a discriminatory one. DS didn't get a place, got a full sweep of A stars, took an amazing gap year where he worked and leaned a language. And went to Cambridge.
He reasoned he was never going to get on well with a tutor like that for 3 years. And the tutor clearly didn't want someone like him anyway! Broad shoulders and thick skin, my son!

I don't think its a disadvantage or bias. The drop in private school students is in part a result of increasing state school applicants. State school pupils earn the lion share of top grades (75%) but have often not applied in similar numbers to Oxbridge as state school applicants.

Through outreach and other efforts this is changing and the proportions are becoming aligned with the grades which is inherently fairer.

I don't think anyone is at a disadvantage going private but private school pupils won't get to monopolise admissions going forward as they have historically.

@ConfusedaboutSchool a very sane and balanced summary!

I can't keep up with this thread, but I think it is fair to say that both state and private school mums are equally interested/obsessed with Oxbridge admission.
This topic comes up very regularly here and always gathered a lot of responses, but no real new insights?

I agree with @Mumoftwoinprimary and I don't think it really matters one jot which school he goes to. They work very hard to identify the right students and look well beyond grades.

My brother went to Cambridge, having been tossed from school to school his entire education some private, others not, some good some absolutely dire (Dad's job caused us to move very frequently). Even so he was put up a year at school - so was a whole year+ younger than most of his peers. We moved mid his GCSEs and the school had totally different syllabus' in all but a few of his subjects. In essence he did his GCSE in a year. He was encouraged by his teachers to apply to Oxbridge and received an unconditional offer from Cambridge to do Natural sciences and advanced mathematics. In other words they wanted him even if he failed every A level - why?

He is brilliant, literally, it didn't matter what school he was at or what obstacles where put in his way. His interview was anything but a tick box exercise... part of it was a healthy debate on the applications of super-conducting magnets... His predicated 4 A grades didn't set him apart from the others as they all had that - they loved his mind, the way it works & how he thinks. As predicted he did very well. Kids like this will always be strong contenders for Oxbridge regardless of what school they attended. Encouraging applicants from all schools is exactly how they will ensure they get the best students.

I'd also add his peers came from all walks of life and backgrounds, not just private schools. What they had in common was their brilliance.

@Pinkyxx

I agree with *@Mumoftwoinprimary* and I don't think it really matters one jot which school he goes to. They work very hard to identify the right students and look well beyond grades.

My brother went to Cambridge, having been tossed from school to school his entire education some private, others not, some good some absolutely dire (Dad's job caused us to move very frequently). Even so he was put up a year at school - so was a whole year+ younger than most of his peers. We moved mid his GCSEs and the school had totally different syllabus' in all but a few of his subjects. In essence he did his GCSE in a year. He was encouraged by his teachers to apply to Oxbridge and received an unconditional offer from Cambridge to do Natural sciences and advanced mathematics. In other words they wanted him even if he failed every A level - why?

He is brilliant, literally, it didn't matter what school he was at or what obstacles where put in his way. His interview was anything but a tick box exercise... part of it was a healthy debate on the applications of super-conducting magnets... His predicated 4 A grades didn't set him apart from the others as they all had that - they loved his mind, the way it works & how he thinks. As predicted he did very well. Kids like this will always be strong contenders for Oxbridge regardless of what school they attended. Encouraging applicants from all schools is exactly how they will ensure they get the best students.

I'd also add his peers came from all walks of life and backgrounds, not just private schools. What they had in common was their brilliance.

I'm not sure I made my point clear enough; it is a good thing that my friend said that the interview process involves box ticking and competency based questions. This is so that each candidate's abilities can be assessed in roughly the same way, so as to avoid unfair bias. I'm sure your brother is very brilliant AND ticked all the boxes at interview

@ConfusedaboutSchool

I don't think its a disadvantage or bias. The drop in private school students is in part a result of increasing state school applicants. State school pupils earn the lion share of top grades (75%) but have often not applied in similar numbers to Oxbridge as state school applicants.

Through outreach and other efforts this is changing and the proportions are becoming aligned with the grades which is inherently fairer.

I don't think anyone is at a disadvantage going private but private school pupils won't get to monopolise admissions going forward as they have historically.

This is very true.

It has been a long, slow, painful process getting the number of state applicants up (I was a “target” of a target schools talk in 1996 and then did them myself in the late 90s and early 00s.)

But it is getting there.

My own experience though is that it is bloody hard to apply to Oxbridge from a state school - even a perfectly lovely, middle class, state school. Everyone has an opinion and you really need a definite “fuck you” attitude to people who don’t like it.

In my case the discouragement wasn’t even given in a bad way - some of my friends just couldn’t believe that their friend could possibly be happy mouldering away in some dreaming spire when I could be somewhere far more fun!

OP, you had some good advice upthread about picking the secondary school where you think your child will be the happiest, whatever sector that is. In our case, we declined a private scholarship and DS went to a (largely good but had some difficulties) comprehensive where he was very happy. And being happy he did very well (13 Grade 9's at GCSE) and 4 A*. He is now at Oxford.

Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ?

Two things are clear:
More state school children are applying - and as there are very bright kids in state schools, then a larger number applying will eventually result in a larger proportion of acceptances.
The proportion of privately educated DC being accepted is around 30% whilst the proportion of privately educated DC nationally is 7%, rising to 20% at 6th form. So a DC is still proportionately more likely to be accepted if privately educated.

And as a pp said again upthread, the margins are really very small anyway. Everyone applying will have the potential, and there is clearly an element of luck.

Lastly, be careful what you or your DC wish for. My DS wanted to go to Oxford for many years and was thrilled to be accepted. But he is not all that happy there - he loves the academics and does not struggle with the work but I wonder if he ignored everything else in making his applications. He's not unhappy but he is not loving it, doesn't like the 'bubble' that is Oxford, not terribly happy socially. Of course this could have been true wherever he went, he/I will never know. Ultimately we all want our children happy and it pains me somewhat to hear DS say he can't wait to finish his degree and get out. So don't think too far ahead - think about where will suit your DC are where they will be happy.

I don't think anyone is at a disadvantage going private but private school pupils won't get to monopolise admissions going forward as they have historically.

Thank god, this way they will get the brightest sparks as they should. Selecting less able private school leavers just leads to our society being less competent and less competitive.

@ClingClingDin

I don't think anyone is at a disadvantage going private but private school pupils won't get to monopolise admissions going forward as they have historically.

Thank god, this way they will get the brightest sparks as they should. Selecting less able private school leavers just leads to our society being less competent and less competitive.

There's another emerging trend for financially secure British families that attend private independents, which is to go to an American Ivy League school. This is unfortunate since a number of those students do not return to the UK after graduation. This results in the UK losing some very talented people forever.

I don’t think that’s right my magic circle law firm was stuffed with Ivy League types they love working in London! More holidays than New York

@MsTSwift

I don’t think that’s right my magic circle law firm was stuffed with Ivy League types they love working in London! More holidays than New York

Indeed. Also, what is the alternative — give them Oxbridge laces so they don’t flounce off overseas? Refuse to let them leave the country to study?

I somehow think we will manage just fine with our home grown talent!

Grinding
“Indeed. Also, what is the alternative — give them Oxbridge laces so they don’t flounce off overseas? “

Re: “flouncing off”
I don’t think it is so much flouncing as that now we have to pay such higher fees here, for some America is worth considering. Their universities are excellent especially if a student wants a wider base of knowledge before specialising. Then some others are able to get scholarships in America.