State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

*Clarification:
Inevitably this means that the proportion of students from private schools [at some universities where they have been over-represented in the past] will reduce over time

Such silly posts. There are hundreds of incredibly talented kids from state and private who don’t get in ‘‘twas ever thus you can’t get angry about it and conclude he was rejected it just because he went to a private school 🙄. Remember my dad tearing his hair out when amazing candidates he worked with at his state school didn’t get in. If they are that good they will excel somewhere else and do amazing things in life.

@jytdtysrht

You are quite correct that my friend’s ds will do brilliantly. It’s all lined up and he’s very excited about it. He is completely “over” Oxbridge. I am the one who is angry about it, not him. I think they are stupid for passing on a lovely kid with such a fantastic brain because of private school prejudice. I am not ashamed to say that. It isn’t arrogance either - how can it be when he isn’t my child? I don’t have skin in the game.

How on earth do you know it was private school prejudice?

How on earth do you know that they had one place left, the interviewers sat tearing their hair out whether to offer the place to him or hypothetically another private school girl, who also had all the credentials and did well in interview but who at the end of the day they decided was very slightly the better candidate?

In fact you don't even know that the college he applied to didn't make ALL offers in the subject to private school children!

@jytdtysrht did they actually say he was rejected because he went to private school?
How do you know there weren't x number of other candidates with the same or better grades and predictions? Who got better marks in the end trace test? Who performed better in the interview?
You do know don't you that in some colleges there are no more than a handful of places for particular subjects? And perhaps the other successful candidates were privately educated? It's possible.
You really are being a bit silly.

If they were tearing their hair out over the last place, they would have stuck him in the pool, surely.

You're a bit over invested in your friend's child @jytdtysrht
Hopefully the child has moved on. It's the best way

Very few get in notwithstanding their talents. You can’t get angry about it. It’s like getting angry about not winning the lottery or not looking like a supermodel.

@hashbrownie

Apologies if this point has been made, as I only skim-read the first page of replies, not the full thread. I think all universities are ultimately aiming for a comprehensive:grammar:private ratio that reflects the population of the uk, whilst still maintaining high standards. Inevitably this means that the proportion of students from private schools will reduce over time. The proportion from grammar schools may also reduce.

My advice to the op is that she just chooses the school their child most wants to go to, or which seems the best fit. It's too soon to worry about where they go for uni. They might prefer to do an apprenticeship or something else.

Absolutely this. Which will mean that as only one in seven British children attend private schools, the numbers getting places at Oxbridge will decline accordingly, and a correspondingly proportionately small percentage of grammar school pupils, where the cost of tuition for entrance exams disadvantages poorer children, likewise.

@jytdtysrht

If they were tearing their hair out over the last place, they would have stuck him in the pool, surely.

OK, so they didn't pool him? So he wasn't near the top of their candidates that year, then, despite an excellent track record. Maybe he veered off piste in the entrance test, maybe he wasn't able to change direction as quickly as others mid-interview, who knows?

I wonder if you would be as cross on behalf of my daughter's all-A*-everywhere friend who didn't get a place either?

Oh gosh I missed that. Not pooled? Pooling is an excellent way of picking up excellent candidates from colleges who have an over abundance of said excellent candidates.
Hope the young friend of @jytdtysrht found a good fit at another university.

@Bumpsadaisie

In fact you don't even know that the college he applied to didn't make ALL offers in the subject to private school children!

Semi-related, I noticed a while ago whilst advising someone on applications that the tendency for certain Oxbridge colleges to be labelled as 'state school colleges' has become to some extent self-unfulfilling IYSWIM - e.g. say King's at Cambridge has historically had about the highest proportion of state school applicants, well based on 2020 data King's was very much one of the places where a disproportionaly high % of private school applications translated into offers... and then somewhere like St John's or Magdalene are seen as less state school-y/had a lower % of state applications, but state applications were actually more likely to turn into offers on average than private ones were. in other words, if you're a borderline case it on average pays to apply against type.

I have read this thread with interest. My dd has just got a place at a London grammar. We are a family for whom the expense of tutoring for a year was not prohibitive but not unnoticed. We only did it because her primary teacher suggested it and didn’t really think it through. I’m now concerned that going to a grammar school may adversely affect her chances of getting into a good uni. She would I’m sure do equally well at our local comp and if I’m reading correctly, would stand more of a chance of gaining the uni place if she did? Perhaps I should put in a late application for a lower preference school.

People getting "angry" that their acquaintance from private school didn't get in to Oxbridge is pretty funny tbh 🤭. Did you think all top students just got a free pass into Oxbridge? I know so many people who applied or whose children applied and didn't get in. They were all "lovely kids", high achievers and the rest. They don't tend to encourage people predicted Bs and Cs at A level to apply from comps, grammars or private school.

It used to be the case that the 'right' school meant you were pretty much guaranteed a place, but thank god, those days are long gone. Now you have to actually impress at interview. If you don't do better than the other candidates, you won't get a place. And if there's 'bias' towards comp kids, well, good! Hilarious that anyone would see it as unfair when school fees are now so high that only extremely privileged families can afford to pay them. And I went to private school fwiw

With [I read somewhere recently] over 6% of kids getting AAA, it's beyond stupid that Oxbridge still let kids in with less than AAA, it's lunacy. 6% of all A level students is nearly 50k kids per year, when Oxbridge between the, have fewer than 25k undergraduate students across all three years.

I don’t think I agree with this. Oxbridge is after brilliance at one subject - not “good all rounders”.

To give an example - two kids - Fred and George. Both applied to do Geography. Both doing Geography, French and English at A level.

Fred - really good at all three subjects. Predicted comfortable A* in all three. Debated between doing English and Geography but went for Geography in the end. Interviewed pretty well.

George - Predicted AAA. (French accent is a bit shit to be honest.) Truly brilliant at geography. Scored the highest mark in the country in a number of papers. Obsessed with geography. Interviewed brilliantly.

Do you really want Fred over George?

(Incidentally I am George and dh is Fred. We both got in. He is good at everything. I am very very good at exactly one thing. He has a huge array of brilliant pre university achievements in - well - everything. I….erm…. don’t. But I have a higher class degree. )

@Superness

I have read this thread with interest. My dd has just got a place at a London grammar. We are a family for whom the expense of tutoring for a year was not prohibitive but not unnoticed. We only did it because her primary teacher suggested it and didn’t really think it through. I’m now concerned that going to a grammar school may adversely affect her chances of getting into a good uni. She would I’m sure do equally well at our local comp and if I’m reading correctly, would stand more of a chance of gaining the uni place if she did? Perhaps I should put in a late application for a lower preference school.

Don't panic. For a start your daughter is too young for you to mark her down mentally for any university. Secondly, and hopefully, you're choosing the school that's best for her rather than trying to game any system. However I'm sure the grammar will stand her in good stead. The local comp is unlikely to have specialist sessions in sixth form to prepare students fir the Oxbridge (or medical school) hoops. Grammars and privates tend to. My DS who went to Cambridge from a poor comp didn't have any such preparation.

In fact this thread generally is p-ing me off with the assumption by some that students like my son are getting some invisible leg up; they're really not.

Plus if they don't get into Oxford or Cambridge it's really not the end of the world. DD was a near miss and went elsewhere, and is now a PhD candidate at LSHTM. So talent will out. Nil desperandum and all that.

@Hashbrownie and @Grinling et al thank you for being more eloquent than I was! Yup, we don't all get what we want or think we deserve in life, and seeing parents students become so fixed on a single possible path in life is a shame and not going to stand them in good stead

@Superness

I have read this thread with interest. My dd has just got a place at a London grammar. We are a family for whom the expense of tutoring for a year was not prohibitive but not unnoticed. We only did it because her primary teacher suggested it and didn’t really think it through. I’m now concerned that going to a grammar school may adversely affect her chances of getting into a good uni. She would I’m sure do equally well at our local comp and if I’m reading correctly, would stand more of a chance of gaining the uni place if she did? Perhaps I should put in a late application for a lower preference school.

Don’t be silly - of course it won’t.

I spent 3 years at Cambridge. When I was in first year there was a big kerfuffle from the private schools about how Oxbridge was biased against them. When I was in second year a load of grammar schools reckoned that Oxbridge was biased against them. And when I was in third year there was a huge national outcry about Oxbridge being biased against comprehensives after a certain future doctor was rejected. Even Gordon Brown had an opinion on that one.

There will always be people not getting in who probably should have.

Send your dd to whatever school you think that she will be happiest at.

@Mumoftwoinprimary

With [I read somewhere recently] over 6% of kids getting AAA, it's beyond stupid that Oxbridge still let kids in with less than AAA, it's lunacy. 6% of all A level students is nearly 50k kids per year, when Oxbridge between the, have fewer than 25k undergraduate students across all three years.

I don’t think I agree with this. Oxbridge is after brilliance at one subject - not “good all rounders”.

To give an example - two kids - Fred and George. Both applied to do Geography. Both doing Geography, French and English at A level.

Fred - really good at all three subjects. Predicted comfortable A* in all three. Debated between doing English and Geography but went for Geography in the end. Interviewed pretty well.

George - Predicted AAA. (French accent is a bit shit to be honest.) Truly brilliant at geography. Scored the highest mark in the country in a number of papers. Obsessed with geography. Interviewed brilliantly.

Do you really want Fred over George?

(Incidentally I am George and dh is Fred. We both got in. He is good at everything. I am very very good at exactly one thing. He has a huge array of brilliant pre university achievements in - well - everything. I….erm…. don’t. But I have a higher class degree. )

mm, not sure I really agree with that. not when so many pupils get A's in so many things, A in your chosen subject or something like it should be a given, but A*s in other things are clearly relevant too, not least because advanced degree modules can take you in quite a few directions, e.g. in your example a few bits of degree level physical geography [and most of say degree level economics] can start to get quite maths-y in a way that A level geography or economics doesn't.

@jytdtysrht

If they were tearing their hair out over the last place, they would have stuck him in the pool, surely.

Yes, I guess you are right, they would have. Which means they did not think: "Oh god, this lad is standout brilliant, wish we could make him an offer, but we just have no room, we must pool him".

It means they felt safe in their decision that he, although doubtless with great capacities, was not much different to the many other thousands of youngsters that didn't get a place this year.

@newmummycwharf1

Part of being a parent is supporting and guiding your children to make good decisions that will enable them to be fulfilled individuals and productive citizens. A good parent would research whether decisions made at 10/11 year old for their child will limit their options in future, whatever those options maybe (in this case possibility of Oxbridge/RG). Obviously if those schools dont suit, it becomes a moot point but at this stage, she is right to try to understand what/if any consequences these choices may affect in future, particularly if paying fees will be a sacrifice. Just sending your kid to the nearest school geographically, never mind if it fits the child or not.....borderline benign neglect!

Borderline benign neglect. Are you for real?

Alas, I think @newmummycwharf1 is deadly serious.

Indeed I am

Do the parents obsessed with Oxbridge realise your child can be amazing, successful, happy... in life without going to Oxbridge? My goodness. 7 years from the start of secondary school to start of Uni (minimum) - you do realise that children grow, change their dreams, develop new hobbies...

Bristol, Exeter, Durham and the like are full of bright students who just missed out on an Oxbridge offer. All have A*/As and put in a great personal statement. Somehow, most get over their disappointment and flourish.