State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

Let’s hope your DS doesn’t choose a career as a bricklayer. All these years of privilege and stressing over the best way to play the system down the drain 😔

@jytdtysrht

They have a heavy bias towards state educated pupils.

For institutions that are supposed to contain fine minds, it's a very basic analysis to conclude:

state = poor, underprivileged, deserving of place
private = rich bastard, overprivileged, undeserving of place

The OP herself can go into either category - her child is the exact same child whichever she plumps for. Illustrating the flaw in the analysis above.

My friend's ds just got rejected. He passed the exam, had all top grades, loads of relevant preparation, experience, genuine love for the subject etc etc. Crime = going to private school. Irony = he went there because he was extraordinarily clever and got the highest possible scholarship, with no preparation, having attended a state primary.

There is a good public school near me and instead of getting several in to Oxbridge, they got 2 in. These 2 candidates were BAME, which I imagine may have negated their crime of attending public school. Not a single white kid got in. Despite one having won a national prize in their subject.

I also know someone who went to Cambridge, "salt of the earth state school pupil". Oh, but did I mention her dad is an A level examiner in the subject she got in for. Big advantage, no? But never mind, at least she isn't a "public school white boy scum of the earth" type.

I know someone else who went - daddy was a lecturer at another uni in the subject this person got in for. Mummy was a SAHM in a lovely 5 bed home making life perfect. But "state school salt of the earth". No privilege there, no not at all.

How bout the kid at the private school who had 2 dead parents and is boarding off their estate because there is nobody to look after her in a family home. Privilege? For the love of God.

It's all a load of horseshit OP and I'd send your child where you think they will fit in the best, with the school meeting their needs.

You sound very bitter. And there is no heavy bias to state schools. For goodness sake they/we make up the vast majority!

Yes it's true. My child is in a state school. Works hard,extremely good grades and plans to go to uni. If he does try for Oxbridge I expect him to be considered on equal times of a private school child with to he same grades. That's only fair. I carnt believe the utter priviledge your post represents ,discusting.

I am really bitter, yes. My friend's son more than deserved to go and would have done amazingly.

Isn't it OK to be bitter when wronged?

@jytdtysrht

I am really bitter, yes. My friend's son more than deserved to go and would have done amazingly.

But he wasn't good enough. So many people think they are entitled to these privileges only to get a cold awakening when others out race them.

Yes, he was good enough. Don't you think these people make mistakes?

But most of the kids who apply are rejected. They aren’t ‘wronged’ because of it. They just didn’t get in. That’s life.

Found this on the Oxford Uni website, which doesn't look particularly unfair. Dd's friend is amazing at maths and goes to a comp in the bottom 40% for A level results. He got an interview but didn't get an offer. I assume he didn't have quite what they were looking for and others did, like your friend's son. Only 1 in 7 who apply get an offer after all

He was wronged because his crime was attending a public school. I'll continue to feel bitter about that.

Ultimately OP you are paying your taxes so send you DC to a state/grammar school if you wish. I really don't agree that anyone who can afford private should send their DC private, it doesn't work like that. As other posters have said there are thousands of lovely middle class parents who can't afford private but 'play' the system to get into the good/outstanding state schools. I don't think they're loosing any sleep about this.

I would focus on which school is giving an all round education not just academics.

I have no skin in this game however I am interested in it. Whilst I agree the admissions to Oxbridge need to be 'levelled up' they seem to be going about it in an interesting way (read let's make it look like we are doing something but actually we're taking the easy option). The state schools getting most offers are selective at sixth form e.g. Brampton and Hills Road both of which (especially Hills) targeted by the middle classes. I did find it amusing when a friend of mine was shocked and annoyed to hear that uni's gave contextual offers, this was having send her DC to one of those type of schools!

I would like to see more children from genuinely challenging/poor backgrounds. I do wonder however how much Oxbridge worry that some children will struggle to cope with the whole 'experience'. The fact is our exam system still doesn't allow those most gifted to shine, too many 9's and A*s.

OP, I haven't RTFT but have a DC at Oxford as well as friends in academia there. It is true that there is some weighting to slightly even the balance if a pupil comes from a state school without a track record of pupils applying to Oxford. But Tiffin and Wilsons pupils won;t be treated differently from independent school applicants as they too will have had the advantage of an excelent education among highly academic peers at a school properly geared up to send pupils to Oxbridge.

@jytdtysrht

He was wronged because his crime was attending a public school. I'll continue to feel bitter about that.

As already explained at least a coupleof times on this thread, private schools even now get a higher % of Oxbridge places than they do AAA+ grades. So for every private school sob story like yours [I'll confess to having shed a tear upon reading it] there's slightly more than one equivalent state school story.

Really though, most of the potential for fundamental unfairness is tied in with grade boundaries & grade inflation.

With [I read somewhere recently] over 6% of kids getting AAA, it's beyond stupid that Oxbridge still let kids in with less than AAA, it's lunacy. 6% of all A level students is nearly 50k kids per year, when Oxbridge between the, have fewer than 25k undergraduate students across all three years.

Obviously, to introduce a semblence of fairness:

(a) Grades should be deflated so that AAA* becomes much rarer;
(b) Uni places should be awarded when grades are known, not based on predicted grades; and
(c) Any kid with AAA* who wants to get into Oxbridge should be able to, with whatever arrangements in place with any unfilled places after that.

The current situation, where you've got so many squillions of kids exceeding the minimum requirements for Oxbridge, bakes unfairness & error into the process. Of course some deserving candidates are going to be turned away when you're relying on ludicrous tie breakers like interviews etc.

@confusedmommy, I don’t know what news you may have received today from the grammars but just wanted to say that If the commute time is going to be a factor, don’t underestimate the horrible traffic on the Ridgway.

Don’t know where you live, but it could be much faster to get into Kingston by train than be stuck in heavy Wimbledon traffic every morning.

oops, i triggered bold formatting there - I should just have said 'triple A*', that's what I meant in every instance.

@jytdtysrht

He was wronged because his crime was attending a public school. I'll continue to feel bitter about that.

Unless you were with him in his interview I don’t know how you can POSSIBLY know that he deserved a place. It seems very likely that he didn’t.

Again, it’s not just about grades.

There is no fairness in the system and the emphasis upon state school admissions to Oxbridge favours those on low income, first generation university applicants and disadvantage postcodes. What happens is the the middle income groups miss out - those at high paying independent schools where class are smaller and more support is available etc etc continue to outperform whilst those in the disadvantaged groups gain reduced entry. Therefore those in the middle miss out

I don’t think you get it

I think this poster 'gets it' perfectly. The current system means those at the 'top' and those at the 'bottom' of society have a far higher chance of getting in. There's a huge middle group who are the main ones being disadvantaged by this.

If your postcode is in a deprived area you have a better chance of getting in. Someone with the same results as my dc, going to the same school but with parents on low income - better chance, strongly recommended to be pushed for interview stage.

We live in a fairly strange catchment where pretty much 50% of the pupils live in the biggest Council Estate in the County and 50% the wealthiest area.

If a kid living in the Council estate - a 'deprived' postcode - is up against my ds, who doesn't count as living in this deprived ward - they're at a higher chance of getting to interview. Same school. Same parental income.

There is so much further to go to make it anywhere resembling fair and there is definitely a 'squeezed middle' group in this situation.

Well I'm not going to agree that he wasn't wronged.

Anyway. The ultimate irony is that when the salt of the earth son of the cleaner goes to Oxbridge, everyone claps them and cheers them on because they have done so wonderfully, overcoming the odds (and beating those privileged bastards). And then...wind the clock forwards 25 years and you will find the general attitude to that same person to be...Oxbridge graduate, oh you're rich, overprivileged in your ivory tower and your drinking clubs. That person has a child - child is considered an overprivileged little lord Fauntleroy and certainly doesn't deserve a place at Oxbridge based on this fact alone.

This is based on actual people I know btw.

@jytdtysrht

Well I'm not going to agree that he wasn't wronged.

Anyway. The ultimate irony is that when the salt of the earth son of the cleaner goes to Oxbridge, everyone claps them and cheers them on because they have done so wonderfully, overcoming the odds (and beating those privileged bastards). And then...wind the clock forwards 25 years and you will find the general attitude to that same person to be...Oxbridge graduate, oh you're rich, overprivileged in your ivory tower and your drinking clubs. That person has a child - child is considered an overprivileged little lord Fauntleroy and certainly doesn't deserve a place at Oxbridge based on this fact alone.

This is based on actual people I know btw.

Er, right. Well if this hypothetical Fauntleroy, say, went to private school, that would indeed be relevant contextual information. The fact that one of his grandparents cleaned for a living is barely relevant at all.

The fact is that like most 'talents', academic ability is only modestly inheritable. e.g. look at the England football team [more or less an absolute meritocracy, where talent] - how many of the player's fathers played for England? zero. how many of them were even professionals at a much lower level? I'm not sure the answer is quite zero but very close to it. Contrast this with Oxbridge/the Bar/medicine/other bastions of privelige - how strong is the correlation between father & son there? It's almost absolute.

@jytdtysrht

Well I'm not going to agree that he wasn't wronged.

Anyway. The ultimate irony is that when the salt of the earth son of the cleaner goes to Oxbridge, everyone claps them and cheers them on because they have done so wonderfully, overcoming the odds (and beating those privileged bastards). And then...wind the clock forwards 25 years and you will find the general attitude to that same person to be...Oxbridge graduate, oh you're rich, overprivileged in your ivory tower and your drinking clubs. That person has a child - child is considered an overprivileged little lord Fauntleroy and certainly doesn't deserve a place at Oxbridge based on this fact alone.

This is based on actual people I know btw.

Hmm.

Well there may well be people like that out there. Some people do view society as set up as exploiters and exploited and nothing else.

Your friends son though was not wronged, he was unfortunate. Many kids who would be perfectly great students at Oxbridge and have all the credentials are rejected each year, state school and private. Not sure what the figures are now but back in my day around 9000 kids a year got AAA at A level (top marks in those days) - Oxbridge had around 6000 places a year between them. That's 3000 very able kids a year who could not be accommodated.

DH and I both went to Cambridge, will support our DCs to try if they are qualified and interested. But there are really no guarantees - I know our DCs could be very well qualified and still miss out. I missed out myself first time round at Oxford. I will always encourage them to have a go but be realistic about how competitive it is and it is NOT the be all and end all by any means.

Indeed for children not emotionally resilient and able to cope with becoming a very small fish in a large sea after having been a large fish in a small sea, it can be a real curse.

@jytdtysrht

Isn't it OK to be bitter when wronged?

There are more people bright enough to get into Oxford and Cambridge than there are places available. It is frankly farcical either to be bitter that a private education did not confer the personal benefit apparently expected as a given; or to be so phenomenally arrogant as to believe that ones genius is so overwhelming that nobody could legitimately have been considered a better candidate. If someone’s private education was that stellar and their innate intelligence that impressive, they will no doubt do brilliantly wherever they go to university, so why the arseholery about it? Anyone would think @jytdtysrht believes the system has always been biased one way or the other and is only angry now because that bias no longer favours their friend’s son, whereas it always used to do just that.

oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so. err, no they are verrry verrry slowly favouring private school applications slight less disproportionately.

You are quite correct that my friend’s ds will do brilliantly. It’s all lined up and he’s very excited about it. He is completely “over” Oxbridge. I am the one who is angry about it, not him. I think they are stupid for passing on a lovely kid with such a fantastic brain because of private school prejudice. I am not ashamed to say that. It isn’t arrogance either - how can it be when he isn’t my child? I don’t have skin in the game.

@jytdtysrht

You are quite correct that my friend’s ds will do brilliantly. It’s all lined up and he’s very excited about it. He is completely “over” Oxbridge. I am the one who is angry about it, not him. I think they are stupid for passing on a lovely kid with such a fantastic brain because of private school prejudice. I am not ashamed to say that. It isn’t arrogance either - how can it be when he isn’t my child? I don’t have skin in the game.

Seriously, it's very, very difficult to know how accurately gauge someone's academic smarts just through everyday conversation. unless you're saying the two of you worked through a few pages of calculus together & you were struck by how blazingly quickly his mind worked?You say that he scored very highly in an 11+ scenario but maybe he just didn't train on very much after that? Kids do develop at different rates.

Apologies if this point has been made, as I only skim-read the first page of replies, not the full thread. I think all universities are ultimately aiming for a comprehensive:grammar:private ratio that reflects the population of the uk, whilst still maintaining high standards. Inevitably this means that the proportion of students from private schools will reduce over time. The proportion from grammar schools may also reduce.

My advice to the op is that she just chooses the school their child most wants to go to, or which seems the best fit. It's too soon to worry about where they go for uni. They might prefer to do an apprenticeship or something else.