State school oxbridge bias

[confusedmommy]

Hi, come March 1st, we are very likely to be in the fortunate position to be able pick between a top independent boys school in london ( KCS or St.Paul’s ) and a grammar school ( Tiffin or Wilson ) for my DS. The choice will be a difficult one for us. We can afford the fees but not without some sacrifices. Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ? And if yes, is this only true in Oxford or is this trend seen in other top Russell group universities too. Given grammar is a realistic option for us, I am wondering even more if independent is the right choice for my DS ( who doesn’t really have a strong point of view personally )

If you get offers from those 4 schools, I would definitely take the Tiffin place and save the 200k. You may need this to pay for younger DCs if they don’t get these places. There will be very little to choose between these schools apart from the money.

I say this as someone who paid for 2 DCs to go though private London schools and both went to Cambridge, so it is certainly not anti private schools.

I know quite a few Oxbridge graduates and all of them are quite average. One's an accountant and trained with PWC, works as an inhouse accountant for a big pharma company, not a finance director or running the company, quite average, another works in publishing and earns not that much, tried to write a book but it amounted to nothing, another is a tutor for 11+, GCSEs and A-levels and also earns not a huge wage and the other tried to work in the media but that amounted to nothing and now is a SAHM. Another works in the civil service, again in an ordinary job, doesn't seem to take home a huge pay packet, not bad but nothing like what you could earn if you worked for say Facebook in coding.

I'm not sure what the fixation is with Oxbridge. Everyone I've ever met from there has amounted to just the same as pretty much everyone else I know...some successful some not so much.

My most successful friend ever went to Exeter, just for the record.

And friends who tried but failed to get in were equally as bright as the ones who were rejected. It was very hit and miss. Honestly not sure what the cult status is all about.

I'd go with Tiffin if you're worried about money. It's a very good school and you can take the kids skiing etc and have lots of fun outside of term time. There's not much in it in terms of results between KCS and Tiffin. Why put yourself under that pressure.

Perhaps OP went to oxbridge and feels history must repeat itself for DS to go too... I've seen quite a bit of that recently too.

Oxbridge is looking positively on regular comprehensive secondary schools, not grammar schools. They are looking at how pupil performs within their context or their cohort.
If they get all 8/9s/A/A* in a school where everyone gets them, then it doesn’t matter to them if the school is private or state.

You child is 11 or 13 years old. Whether they are even wanting to go to oxbridge is very much their decision and many kids who excel in their education to 16 do not achieve a levels at the same high grades. 91% of children in the U.K. attend state schools, the fact 70% of oxbridge students are from state schools should not be a surprise! Send your child to the school that is right for them now, and what your family income is suitable for, it's far too early to be worrying about perceived bias (it's actually the other way btw)

@RedskyThisNight
No they do look and have your GCSES results, also contextualised
So there is no point moving out of the private sector to state if it is slowly to improve your chance of getting a certain uni, though of course you could do it rightly for plenty of other reasons like financial, going for coed, subjects choices etc

I would move away from the Oxbridge fixation and focus on which school you think would be best for your son. You will only get one of Wilson's or Tiffin on Tuesday - do you have a preference between them (ie if you get your second choice of those two, do you still like it?). I would also think about the daily journey, as that makes a difference, especially once they start getting more homework to fit in. And OP, no child should ever come out of KCS or St Paul's moaning about disadvantage! If they do miss out onan Oxbridge place coming from either of those schools, it's because the state educated candidate is better than them, not because Oxbridge had passed them over for an inferior state school pupil.

@confusedmommy

Reading your second long post, please take this from a parent whose kids are now in university, they change so much and really need to be given the space to grow as humans rather than you trying to map out their lives. None of want to unwittingly disadvantage our children but but overwhelming feeling is children benefit from parents able to give them opportunities buy this doesn't mean an expensive education, it could mean having a parent working part time so they are home to help with homework, it could Jean trips to cultural activities or road trips across Europe to experience other cultures. If money is no object, a good private school is a good option but if it's really a stretch then I really think it's not an easy equation especially if 11+ results going your way!

State school bias 😂😂😂😂😂
Oh dear.
I actually coach LA children to get into Oxbridge/medicine etc etc and @Mumoftwoinprimary nails it.
Children with such fortunate, invested and accomplished parents as you have so many advantages over others, trying to game the system is just gross, really

@MsTSwift

Christ have you actually read your own post? You are asking how to play the system - which is now trying to address years of unfairness - to try to pass your own kid off as under privileged when he is patently not to try to gain advantage for him? Sickening. You are not coming across well here op

Come on we all want the best for our kids on an individual basis surely

I would do that for my kid while wanting the system to change overall. Luckily I'm too poor to worry about it

Come on we all want the best for our kids on an individual basis surely

And that is the exact problem with the education system.

Meanwhile I’m hearing that oxbridge is beginning to favour state school applications more so in recent years. Is this really true ?

No, Oxbridge colleges are trying to remove centuries of bias in favour of public schools and students from privileged backgrounds.

Your child, if he turns out to be Oxbridge material, is unlikely to be at a materal advantage in terms of admissions if he goes to an established top grammar rather than a private school. Consider the broader impacts of the school choice not just on your child but on any other children you have.

Bear in mind he might want to do a course not offered at oxbridge. Who knows what he might be into? Let him grow and find out

It is also worth anyone who thinks about moving their child to a state school for sixth form to help with admissions that the child will then need to actually do their A levels in the state school system where there is likely to be less support. I know know my dc has found that some of those moving to their state school at this point have found the lack of individual support hard if they needed this for GCSEs. I know that they can get tutors in but it is hard after being at school all day to have more teaching.

So, hang on… your child is 10/11?

And you’re already working out how to game the system so he gets into Oxbridge?

As someone who came from an ‘underprivileged’ background and got into Oxbridge on merit, with no grammar school, no tutoring, no mock interview even, these posts make me cringe.

Sorry to be harsh, but let the kid enjoy his childhood and back off for six years.

Also, Oxbridge have an uncanny ability to work out who is genuinely worthy of a place and will thrive. They are looking for a LOT more than grades, believe me. Just FYI.

If your child will need this many leg-ups to get in then he’s not Oxbridge material.

If they do miss out onan Oxbridge place coming from either of those schools, it's because the state educated candidate is better than them, not because Oxbridge had passed them over for an inferior state school pupil.

Absolutely.

Agree Bright! Remember my nct group in London a couple super ambitious not English turned to me “how do we get her into Oxford tell us the stages to get there and we will work backwards ”. Our babies were 6 months old 😁 Dh was speechless!

It's not just Oxbridge which may (and I say "may") show a preference for state school candidates over independent school candidates - some of the Russel group are also trying to better balance their undergrads.

In your position why on earth wouldn't you go for the Grammar?

Like you dh got to Cambridge entirely on his own merit (with some amazing state school teachers help of course). Both parents left school at 16 one didn’t speak very good English no tutors no coddling no coaching. They saw him for what he was.

This article from last year is pretty good - and Mumsnet get a mention!
www.ft.com/content/bbb7fe58-0908-4f8e-bb1a-081a42a045b7

To this day not sure my in laws appreciate how well he did!

I was at a talk about applying to Cambridge recently. The statistics given were 75% state school admitted last year. Versus 92% of pupils actually going to a state school. So they are changing to be more representative of society but but exactly matching yet.

One of the reasons Oxbridge had so few state pupils was that so few applied. Rightly, there are now outreach programs to encourage talented students to apply. I don’t think privately educated young people are at a disadvantage due to this, I see it more as an attempt to level up.

Absolutely there a girl in the year above Dd year 13 who gets straight 9s at everything low income family mums a cleaner. Oxford already involved with her (rightly so).

How do you know your son will be that bright? Or not develop a love of textiles and want to go into fashion or something creative? Surely too early to tell!

@MsTSwift Her son has done well academically at 10/11, particularly if secures a place at Tiffin/Wilson. Reasonable to hope that his trajectory will be similar with supportive parents and good teachers. Reasonable to enquire about Oxbridge/RG universities - and what the selection process is and if where they go to secondary school will influence what options they have later on in the event these universities suit. Oxbridge and Top RG unis are aspirational and put in a lot of effort into their brand and product to be desirable to the best minds. Cant see anywhere where she has said it is Oxbridge or burst. Levelling up is a great thing and long overdue but there is nothing wrong with a parent scanning the horizon for their child. She hasnt exactly sent in a query to the registrar at an Oxford College - she has asked on an anonymous parenting forum. Chill!