Intimidating teacher

[chillie]

My son came home yesterday and told me that 8 boys including him in yr 10 were locked in a classroom with and by their chemistry teacher in clubs time until all the rubics cubes were handed in. After they were handed in she proceeded to shout at them that they had been disrespectful. When asked by one boy what was it that he had said or done to be disrespectful she unlocked the door and told them to all leave. She didn't answer him.
Today the same 8 boys were told by the head of year and an assistant headteacher that young female teachers can be intimidated by them and they should be more aware of how they behave.
This is in a super selective grammar school. All boys my son included can behave badly but I really feel that this was inappropriate to say to the boys. They are 14, all black or Asian and nobody shouted at her, swore or approached her. Surely if you are intimidated by teen boys then you don't take a job at an all boys secondary school?
My son who is not in her form tells me that other boys say she often locks the door, can't control the class and sometimes cries. I feel worried about this teacher, it doesn't sound like she is coping. I think she needs help. No teacher should need to lock the door, I would expect the teacher to have enough authority that the boys would not dare leave until given permission. Am I expecting too much?

Your son and his mates were disrespectful simply by not listening and handing in the rubix cubes... maybe this is something you need to discuss with your son? There are times when he should absolutely challenge authority, but this instance wasn't one of them.

Being at a selecive grammar school, should indicate that he has enough intelligence to differentiate between his own twat behaviour and inappropriate actions from authority figures.
But I also agree that the teacher needs help with behaviour management by the sounds of it, she is getting support from he head.

OP: 'My son claims he wasn't behaving badly. I don't necessarily believe him.'

Also OP: 'He is not a liar (even when in trouble he is too lazy to lie)'

There is every possibility that my sons behaviour might have been intimidating but unless I get involved I don't think he will know how to alter this as no boy knows what exactly they did.
Of course they do, unless they all have the memory of a goldfish. perhaps it was death by a thousand cuts - lots of micro-incivilities such as laughing at the teacher, muttering, sniggering, not listening, etc.

To get to the bottom of this, you need to contact the teacher involved and ask them.

I do take on board that the boys may be intimidating without them realising it and they need to know but this type of conversation would have been better had has a whole class pshe type of talk.
Why would it? Why not talk to the boys who are actually being intimidating? You're sounding defensive here, OP.

My son wants me to drop the whole subject.
I bet he does!! Makes me think that he knows just what he did wrong and he doesn't want you to dig any further.

He thinks this teacher is useless because she can't control the class, he's 14, not much sympathy or respect going on for her in his tiny brain at the moment
It's up to you to teach this!

I also don't want him to be a pain in the backside to any teacher or even more so be unaware of how women could perceive his actions. I'm torn on what to do.

You're a teacher - you must know what to do? Model good behaviour. Pull him up on disrespectful talk/behaviour. Make sure he has good role models in his life.

@Tempusfudgeit

OP: 'My son claims he wasn't behaving badly. I don't necessarily believe him.'
His idea of behaving badly and mine aren't the same. What he thinks is behaving badly and what I think are behaving badly don't match, hence him denying it doesn't mean he wasn't according to me.
Yes I am constantly trying to impress on him what is good and bad behaviour but it doesn't mean he will instantly agree with me.

Also OP: 'He is not a liar (even when in trouble he is too lazy to lie)'
When asked directly 'did you do/say ---? ' he tells the truth and admits what he did and did not do.

My son is in s super selective grammar for 7 years, doing his very last year. Teenage boys can be very difficult to manage. I completely understand from where you are coming. Boys will be boisterous, badly behaved and at times can try to challenge authority. Many times they are in a group and one of the boys do something silly and the entire team is punished for that. In my boy's school once he just moved a tube in the chemistry lab when he was not supposed to move it, and the teacher shouted at such high pitch that he literally had a heart attack. Then a note came to me from the teacher that he was behaving hazardously and was putting the life of the entire class in danger. The impression he created then stayed with the teacher till the end of the year and was also included in the end of year report. Ofcourse for my boy it was bit out of proportion as he had no clue what hazardous act he was involved with and always denied any wrong doing.
I understand teachers deal with teenage students in senior schools who can be very very disruptive or intimidating and many times use the same tactics with everyone how ever big or small the erroneous act was.
Only one thing in your case OP that the teacher did not do right was locking the door. The teacher might have done this before and seen this works with the most intimidating students and have applied the same. But this goes against the accepted behaviour of the teacher and for her own safety she should not do that ever. Everything else is quite natural to me.
As you said you are a teacher, why don't you have a chat with the teacher direct? It might give you a complete different perspective.

‘ I talked to my son again last night as I think that some of you are right and that some of his behaviours combined with his height of 6'1 may have made her felt threatened without him knowing. He denies this ’

The main issue here is that your son doesn’t GET to deny this. He doesn’t decide if people are intimidated by him or not. This sounds like it needs to be a bigger conversation about being aware of how you can make other people feel - he’s aware of stereotypes around young black men being considered intimidating and doesn’t think that’s fair, flip that on him. It isn’t a stereotype that women are at risk from men. Read him the stats, get him to look at all the testimonials of students and teachers being sexually assaulted at schools and get him to think again about whether he’s being intimidated. If he’s always been a big tall kid he may well have never particularly felt intimidated himself by others physical presence. Talk to him about empathy.

*whether he’s being intimidating! Not intimidated

@Soontobe60

I don’t know any school where the classroom doors are lockable buy the teacher. I’ve worked in many, and the caretakers are the only ones with the door keys! However, I can imagine in this instance the boys were trying to leave with stolen items and she locked it to prevent them from leaving. That’s hardly a safeguarding issue.

Science classrooms are always lockable. Mine is from the inside.

@Soontobe60

It might not be nice but it's true. Listen to this narrative. The kids think the teacher is useless, she can't control classes, she's resorting to dubious method of control. If this doesn't get better soon would you be up to carrying on?

I'm not, that's my point, I wasn't off with stress first (I've just had an operation), but I would have been eventually if I wasn't already physically ill. I changed schools in September and it hasn't worked out. This is a shambles of a state school though, not super selective. I'm done trying to control teenagers around chemicals and being told they misbehave because they 'think I'm boring' - well if they can't be safe in practicals, the lesson will be less exciting. I'm done following the behaviour system only for them to rearrange their detentions at their leisure, and I'm done with the parents and their excuses. I haven't locked the door, I try not to shout, and I don't ever cry, but I know exactly how this teacher feels. It is so hard to come back from a poor first impression.

@dreadingthetime says of her DS:

"he just moved a tube in the chemistry lab when he was not supposed to move it, and the teacher shouted at such high pitch that he literally had a heart attack"

I have sooo many of these, the boy that 'only touched someone else's shoe' when working with acid. After I'd specifically warned him not to mess about during the practical. The boy who 'didn't know' he shouldn't use the Bunsen burner to set tissues on fire and throw them in the sink. Usually they want to argue about their actions afterwards (while learning should be happening), and then they can add 'she wouldn't let me explain/speak' to the narrative.

And always, always, when I call out to stop them, they were scared, these 6ft boys, by the voice of the little woman (I haven't been accused of being shrill for a fair few years though).

@chillie is, as a parent, is rightly focused on her son. He 'didn't do anything' to this teacher. He 'only' sat silently with 7 other boys, one of whom was defying instructions, while the teacher tried to think of a way out where she didn't either lose equipment or look weak, further cementing her lack of authority.

It's shit for him, he's got caught in the crossfire between this teacher the one with the Rubik's cube, this is what happens to other pupils when one of them 'just' fails to follow instruction.

Detention or behaviour points isn't going to work is it? OP is upset someone has spoken to her son about his behaviour, never mind a formal sanction for 'something he didn't do', because once they leave the room, none of them ever had that one missing Rubik's cube.

OP, if you think that your son is being racially profiled or treated differently from while pupils at school you need to speak up about that, but I don't think this teacher has anything to do with it.

This teacher is struggling, that's clear, and not handling it well, you're probably best doing as you have and asking him to stay away from her, since it seems bad behaviour happens around her. I doubt she care what colour any of them are, it seems 'boys will be boys' is fairly universal.

Sorry for the essay, but as I said, it's taken less than a term at my new school to convince me that, actually, maybe I am a useless teacher. So I'm leaving, because of (and it is mostly, unfortunately) boys like the one with the Rubik's cube. Though in my case they are all white because I'm fairly rural and all my few minority boys are actually all absolutely fabulous.

Many classroom doors are lockable.

In my school we had to drills for lockdown and lock ourselves and the children inside the class.

To be clear - I am not supporting the teacher if she did lock the door in order to prevent them leaving in this instance.

I am still reflecting on the OP who said the teacher has poor disciple if she cannot make the students stay in the class. I disagree strongly. I had very good discipline, but I also know that when you faced with a group of 15 year old students who are all egging each other on, if they want to challenge your authority and walk out of the room agianst you explicit instruction to stay put, then they will walk. I would let them go. One me at 5 foot nothing tall cannot stop a group of 15 year olds leaving. In a good school, of course, you expect the support of SLT if this happens. In many schools that support will not be there.

I think many parents simply do not understand the levl of challenge, intimidation and defiance many teachers face on a daily basis. Parents who make excuses for this behaviour at at the root of the problem.

...and the teacher shouted at such high pitch that he literally had a heart attack. Then a note came to me from the teacher
He was in hospital getting over a heart attack and the teacher was still complaining rather than enquiring how your son was? You'd think the heart attack would be enough punishment. He might have been in the wrong but I think that's harsh.

I wrote to the head of year, she called me back and confirmed my sons story. My son did nothing wrong, he was not rude, disrespectful or intimidating to anyone. The teacher has confirmed he did not actually do anything himself but he has been found guilty by association with this ,difficult' group of boys. I have warned him off these boys before, they are not a good influence on him but I know they look 'exciting' to him. He is foolish and needs to grow up and be more responsible. We will work on this.
This whole episode has been a learning curve for me and for him. I will continue to talk with him about perceptions of and by him, stereotypes, empathy for others and standing up for what is right even if it is difficult to do so. This parenting teenagers lark is very hard, I still have a lot to learn, it never seems to end.
The school is quite strict and is very aware of unconscious bias, I still don't think the teacher is racist but I do think that it is possible for the incident to be viewed that way and the school should be aware of that.

[quote Prescottdanni123]@Soontobe60

OP says that she has been locking doors during lessons as well. If one of these students were to make an allegation against her, falsely or otherwise, the fact that she has been locking doors will not look good to anyone who investigates.[/quote]
No, she said her son was told by another pupil that she locks the door - so that’s 3rd hand information and to be taken with a pinch of salt.
BTW, if she does lock the door, that’s not a good choice, I’m not condoning it.

@chillie

I wrote to the head of year, she called me back and confirmed my sons story. My son did nothing wrong, he was not rude, disrespectful or intimidating to anyone. The teacher has confirmed he did not actually do anything himself but he has been found guilty by association with this ,difficult' group of boys. I have warned him off these boys before, they are not a good influence on him but I know they look 'exciting' to him. He is foolish and needs to grow up and be more responsible. We will work on this. This whole episode has been a learning curve for me and for him. I will continue to talk with him about perceptions of and by him, stereotypes, empathy for others and standing up for what is right even if it is difficult to do so. This parenting teenagers lark is very hard, I still have a lot to learn, it never seems to end. The school is quite strict and is very aware of unconscious bias, I still don't think the teacher is racist but I do think that it is possible for the incident to be viewed that way and the school should be aware of that.

There you go, blaming the teacher again, excusing your son. Feeling intimidated is a matter of perception. It’s not for someone else to say whether you’re feeling intimidated or not. Maybe your unconscious bias against young female teachers is coming into play?

OP- you are a teacher yourself.

You know absolutely 100% how often versions of events from teachers and students differ. Don't you?

You also know, as a teacher, which version is almost always the truthful one.

You also know that the Head of Year has talked to the teacher, and has said "look, this parent is also a teacher, the kid tells his mother you've got it in for him, let's calm things down and tell her that no, her son wasn't the one being an intimidating influence directly, but he was there and clearly saw a way to get his own back on you for you "having it in for him" so ran home to tell his mum you locked the door."

Your son hasn't won. But sadly, him and his gang will now think they have. Hopefully the parents you have to deal with as a teacher have more respect for schools and teachers than you and your son.

Do his gang ever get into bother with strict male teachers?

No. Didn't think so.

@PAFMO @Soontobe60 why are you attacking me and my son? The school doesn't know I'm a teacher. I've told you what has happened, why have you twisted it and made up stuff. If the head of year has confirmed that he didn't do anything, why does that make me a parent defending his behaviour. What is this behaviour I am defending? He was a bystander, and although I'm not happy that he didn't speak up for the teacher and we have spoken about that, that doesn't mean he did anything bad to the teacher directly. Lots of teens everyday don't speak up when they should, that doesn't make them terrible teens, it makes them normal, they are still learning. My son made a bad choice to hang around with naughty children, it doesn't mean he was naughty. He probably will be if he carries on spending time with them but at the moment he hasn't actually done anything wrong.
I'm really shocked to be honest at the amount of condemnation my son and I have had, with so many people making up stuff. I was looking for a way forward to help my son grow to be a better person and some of you have recognised that he is young and still has a lot to learn and given me advice on how to help him and some of you have consigned him and me to hell where we will both burn in hell for eternity for being terrible people, as, if a teacher says it is so then it must be so, teachers are always right !!!

My comments refer to the way you, if you were a teacher, would know how the conversation had gone between the HoY and the teacher.
Your latest post makes him sound about 6 not 14 and 6ft 1.

And Advanced Search is very enlightening.
Hence me now saying "if" you were a teacher.

@itrytomakemyway

A group of teenage boys all egging each other one - yes that is intimidating when you are a teacher - male, female, old young it does not matter, it is intimidating and can be quite frightening.

The best way this teacher can be supported is by you, and the other parents, telling their children that being in a selective school does not give them the right to bully, harrass and intimidate a member of staff.

I'm afraid that your OP does not suggest you are concerned that teacher was not being supported. It reads more like a parent defending their child's poor behaviour. If yet another STEM teacher hands in their notice and goes to find a better paid, less stressful job as a result of your son and his friends then all the other students lose out.

Good luck to the school finding a replacement.

Er, did you read the OP???

When the fuck do you disregard your son's word for a teacher???

You call the school and demand to meet with said teacher and find out what the fucks going on.

Any teacher locking my son up in a class better have a explanation and I'd want to hear it to my face.

OP has a point about race too, many teachers are intimidated by black boys, its well documented. Actions by black boys are taken as aggressive which just aren't by white boys, like talking loudly

Good luck with "demanding" to meet the teacher. Not a chance would I meet with a parent like that. Can be dealt with through my boss.
The locked door - bad idea! Schools I've worked in mostly had doors with a knob you turned to lock them. So if you did, anyone who wanted to could just as easily open it. Bit different if it's a key to open it.

[quote chillie]**@PAFMO* @Soontobe60* why are you attacking me and my son? The school doesn't know I'm a teacher. I've told you what has happened, why have you twisted it and made up stuff. If the head of year has confirmed that he didn't do anything, why does that make me a parent defending his behaviour. What is this behaviour I am defending? He was a bystander, and although I'm not happy that he didn't speak up for the teacher and we have spoken about that, that doesn't mean he did anything bad to the teacher directly. Lots of teens everyday don't speak up when they should, that doesn't make them terrible teens, it makes them normal, they are still learning. My son made a bad choice to hang around with naughty children, it doesn't mean he was naughty. He probably will be if he carries on spending time with them but at the moment he hasn't actually done anything wrong.
I'm really shocked to be honest at the amount of condemnation my son and I have had, with so many people making up stuff. I was looking for a way forward to help my son grow to be a better person and some of you have recognised that he is young and still has a lot to learn and given me advice on how to help him and some of you have consigned him and me to hell where we will both burn in hell for eternity for being terrible people, as, if a teacher says it is so then it must be so, teachers are always right !!!
[/quote]
@chillie

Most Mumsnet posters are white, middle classed women who are completely detached from the issues black women face, never mind black boys.

I'm a lifelong Londoner, mixed race marriage and lots of black relatives and completely understand your post.

My advice would be to keep in close contact with the school, request regular sit downs with the said headteacher, the teacher involved, make yourself known and vocal and also keep on at your son, keep on hard, as there are so many dangers for him , so many in society who will dismiss him and he will encounter discrimination at work, at school, at university. Unfortunately if you want him to be a success, you must remind him, every single day.

I wouldn’t be happy with a bunch of BAME boys being kept behind and later told they can be intimidating, when at least one of them hasn’t done anything wrong and is being kept back merely due to “association” with the others.

I'm sorry, if one of my staff had come to me with this you had better BET I would be in there with her demanding an explanation from this group of boys.

I am SO fed up of kids feeling they can do whatever the hell they want and treat staff like shit. She asked for equipment back. You give it back. If he knew who had it, he says "xxxxz give it back". This line "can't control the class" is only used to justify hideous behaviour and disrespect from the vast majority.

Locking the door was a bad move.

But remember men don't suddenly wake up aged 40 with a sense of male privilege and entitlement. With the sense of how to use there bulk and space to intimidate. They develop that from childhood.
As a parent you are going to have to work against innate social conditioning.

@Evvyjb

I'm sorry, if one of my staff had come to me with this you had better BET I would be in there with her demanding an explanation from this group of boys.

I am SO fed up of kids feeling they can do whatever the hell they want and treat staff like shit. She asked for equipment back. You give it back. If he knew who had it, he says "xxxxz give it back". This line "can't control the class" is only used to justify hideous behaviour and disrespect from the vast majority.

If he knew who had it, he says "xxxxz give it back"

What is he, head boy? It's a teenagers job to stop a situation escalating or....THE ADULTS. Jesus christ....